Eric 0:03

And welcome back to the Golf Intervention podcast. My name is Eric Layton. I teach golf. I'm here with my co-host, Rob Fails. He also teaches golf. We have decades of experience helping golfers just like you play their best golf. And my man Rob Fails is now back from paternity

Rob 0:22

Yes

Eric 0:23

and we are ready to drop some knowledge bombs that we've been working on for weeks now. So anyway, Rob, congratulations

Rob 0:31

Thank you.

Eric 0:32

to have you

Rob 0:33

Yep

Eric 0:34

Um, I, I know I've been asked, "Hey, when's the next episode coming out?" And I say, "Well, Rob's had a

Rob 0:41

Yep, yep.

Eric 0:42

uh-"

Rob 0:43

We've got life stuff going on, but we, uh, we love you, the listener, and, and we are, we are back at it. So here we are

Eric 0:52

Here we are at this exciting time in Rob's life. We talked last week because we were gonna have an episode, and then I forgot my laptop charger, so we had a phone call. And we ended up talking about, we talked about parenting for, like,

Rob 1:05

We did

Eric 1:05

the phone, which was just awesome, but it's not much different than

Rob 1:09

It's really not

Eric 1:10

Um, and so on today's episode, we are gonna discuss and actually give you the keys to being a good lesson taker. are the things that Rob and I to see out of students that come to see us, and other characteristics that we wish could be just a little different at times to help you improve. 'Cause if you're gonna t- come take lessons, you wanna learn something, right? You wanna grow. You wanna improve on the things that you came to see the instructor for. But I feel like it requires a certain type of mindset. Does it not, Rob Fails?

Rob 1:51

I would agree

Eric 1:53

So that's what we're gonna discuss on today's episode, how you can be a better lesson taker. So if you go back in time, maybe my favorite episode we did, definitely in the top five, um, was the one on the growth versus fixed mindset. Uh, early, I do not have episode, I do not have episode numbers memorized in front of me, but it was one of our early episodes, I would say probably in the first 10 or 12. Um, but it was a great episode, I thought. And we went through sort of characteristics, I guess the, the definition of a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset and applied them just to general, like the process of learning golf. That was, yeah, definitely very early in our episodes. So today we wanted to put a little bit different spin on that. You know, we're a couple years down the road. And what we did was we outlined a few things that we thought would be important. So right at the beginning, we're gonna go through and we're just gonna hit you with some things like when you come to a lesson, good lesson takers or growth mindset lesson takers are gonna think one thing, um, and then maybe the fixed mindset lesson takers are the ones that maybe struggle to learn and grow as much might think another thing. And this episode is meant to challenge you, the listener, on thinking about how you prepare really at anything. It's not meant to be critical. I know that for me, I never did I ever think about what my mindset was or how I approached learning? I don't think so, other than just me learning how to teach people, which is a big part of that. And so going through it and actually learning, it's a big growth moment, so I think it was, it was good for me. I think it's good for my students. I talk about it a lot, especially with my junior golfers, 'cause I feel like they're pretty impressionable in that way, and they c- they're really open to learning, which is part of growth mindset. So, let's start it off just with a kind of a list of things. I want you to picture yourself in a lesson. We're gonna go through these, and tell me are you, like, a growth mindset lesson taker, or are you more of a fixed mindset lesson taker? So we're gonna start off with number one, a characteristic of growth mindset lesson taker's gonna be they're curious. They wanna understand why something is happening. Conversely-

Rob 4:13

Fixed mindset lesson takers already have an explanation for why it's happening

Eric 4:18

Ah, interesting. So are you walking in already knowing the answer? yeah. Next one, Ron

Rob 4:29

So the growth mindset lesson taker brings a problem. Uh, you might hear them say, "Here's what I'm currently experiencing

Eric 4:38

And the fixed mindset may say, "I already know really what's going on. I've got the diagnosis. I don't have a-- I'm not explaining a problem. I'm actually s- I already know

Rob 4:47

Right.

Eric 4:50

I just need you to

Rob 4:51

Yes.

Eric 4:52

it's

Rob 4:52

Yes

Eric 4:54

Um, and then the, the growth mindset lesson taker is gonna be open to being wrong. This is a huge one, I think. They're, they're willing to be wrong

Rob 5:03

Whereas fixed mindset lesson taker wants confirmation that they are correct The growth mindset lesson taker, sorry, I forgot it was back to me on that one. Uh, the growth mindset lesson taker is willing to experiment

Eric 5:24

Yes. And the fixed mindset wants the correct answer immediately. This is one I

Rob 5:31

100%.

Eric 5:31

all the time for sure. Um, I think the growth mindset, uh, lesson taker's comfortable looking, comfortable looking bad while learning. This is huge, I think

Rob 5:42

the fixed mindset lesson taker interprets bad shots as evidence that something isn't working. And that, that is, uh, that hits deep for sure. N-

Eric 5:51

We're

Rob 5:52

no doubt. Absolutely

Eric 5:53

gonna get, we're gonna get into these deeper at the bottom, yeah. But just wanna kinda detail some bullet points here

Rob 6:00

The growth mindset lesson taker is interested in skills and, uh, the-- use the outcomes as feedback

Eric 6:06

Conversely, fixed mindset is obsessed positions and maybe what we call mechanics of the golf swing.

Rob 6:14

Totally

Eric 6:16

Um, that the fixed, or excuse me, the growth mindset is gonna definitely use ball flight as feedback

Rob 6:22

Yep.

Eric 6:22

for sure it's an objective

Rob 6:24

Whereas fixed mindset lesson taker uses how the swing feels as the primary feedback The growth mindset lesson taker is gonna ask, "What am I trying to accomplish?"

Eric 6:39

Right. And f- uh, fixed mindset's gonna say, "Where should this body part be at what time?"

Rob 6:46

Yep.

Eric 6:47

Interesting,

Rob 6:47

Yep

Eric 6:48

Um, I would say growth mindset definitely takes ownership of all practice habits, for sure

Rob 6:54

Fixed mindset lesson takers, they expect the instructor to fix the problem. Yeah

Eric 6:59

Mm-hmm. That's, that one's... And I think that's, yeah, we're gonna talk more about that for sure. yeah. Kr- Go ahead

Rob 7:08

Growth mindset lesson takers see setbacks as information.

Eric 7:13

I love that.

Rob 7:14

Yeah, me too

Eric 7:15

Um, and then the fixed mindset is gonna see the setbacks as a

Rob 7:19

Ja

Eric 7:19

Like, "Oh, that didn't work. I'm terrible," right? And then the, uh, the growth mindset's gonna understand that learning takes time

Rob 7:30

Fixed mindset lesson takers expect immediate improvement

Eric 7:35

This might be the, that might, that right there might be the biggest one we, we work with,

Rob 7:40

Yep.

Eric 7:40

Um

Rob 7:41

mindset lesson takers, they transfer the lesson to the course, which we can talk about that a little bit more maybe

Eric 7:48

Mm-hmm. And the, um, the fixed mindset does a better job in the lesson maybe and on the range in certain types of practice, but has a hard time taking it play on the golf course. And then, uh, growth mindset is, this is, this warms my heart, and we're gonna get, we're gonna get more into this. This is gonna be, uh, uh, one of the big ones we talk about here in a minute. But become increasingly independent

Rob 8:15

Yeah. Whereas fixed mindset lesson takers become increasingly dependent on the instructor

Eric 8:22

So through that, you know, just those bullet points kind of hit hard a little bit. I mean, I think if you're really sitting there, you, you could put that whether you're learning whatever you're learning, right? If you're, if you're so- if you're a school-age person and you're learning things, if you're learning a martial art, if you're learning to paint, if you're learning pickleball or tennis or some racket sport, um, learning yoga, I'm sure is a similar way. Like, there are, there are good ways to go about it, and then there's ways where literally you're playing defense on yourself. That's the way that I look at it, right? And golf has no defense. I say this all the time, right, to students in lessons, like, there's no defense in golf. There's no defense in golf, right? It's you, and you're playing offense all the time. There's no one out there stopping you. And if you're the one playing defense on yourself, which I see a lot, right, more often than I'd like, that is just no way to get better. This is one of the main reasons people get stuck, right? They're their own worst enemy. And I think if you listen to that list that we just detailed, I think it's pretty easy to see the, the, the main bullet points that can be sticking points for golfers in their development. So we're gonna go through right now five major bullet points that we wanted to talk about on how to be a good lesson taker, right? And so we're gonna start off with number one, which we're gonna call curiosity versus certainty. Okay? And This is interesting because I think that certainty, and I... This is wild for some people to hear, right? But certainty can actually be an obstacle to learning. And a lot of times people go in wanting to find answers. You wanna know the answer. Tell me, Eric, the answer. What is the answer, Coach Rob? Tell me right now. I wanna be certain what

Rob 10:25

Yeah

Eric 10:25

is. So what do you see in your lessons, Rob, that this is, like, a very big sticking point for people?

Rob 10:31

Yeah, I think, uh, specifically when we talk about chasing certainty of the future, right? And understanding that, like, trying to essentially find a guarantee. Can this swing idea guarantee that I avoid a future outcome that I'm not willing to accept, right? Can it, um, can it guarantee that I create a certain skill outcome that I prefer, right? So eith-either way, um, trying to control the future, trying to be certain about the future does take away from the process. It does take away from the, the level to which we are open to anything, which we-- what do we know about that? It typically takes us off time, and so when we're off time, we're typically off task. So I tell this to my students all the time, like, you-- have, have you ever heard of that old adage of like, "Oh, whoever wants it more is gonna win"? No. That's BS, right? Just wanting it more or trying to be more certain about the future doesn't make it more or less likely to happen, right? So you wanna put your attention on what are the on-time behaviors that might make the outcome that I prefer more likely, right? Which is a very different way to, to kinda look at it, for sure

Eric 11:54

I would also say that in the certainty, one of the, one of the sticking points there is, when that question is asked, like, "Why am I doing X?"

Rob 12:06

Right

Eric 12:06

am I seeing Y?" And you, you as an instructor are trying to go like, "Well, I mean, it could be, be

Rob 12:14

The truth is, is like we rare- like we don't know.

Eric 12:17

We're not certain, right? So if you, if One of the things about taking lessons from a good coach is if they're really certain with one answer a lot of times, then they're, I hate to be critical,

Rob 12:28

Yeah.

Eric 12:29

maybe not, maybe not a

Rob 12:30

Dunning-Kruger effect going on there. Yeah

Eric 12:33

Yeah, correct. Look up the Dunning-Kruger effect. That is a really good, that is a really good So you, you are, you're believing in your own biases a lot of

Rob 12:43

Yeah

Eric 12:43

seeing it through your own, your own And if you're, if you're a good coach, you're saying, "Well, it could be this and it could be that." And we also know that golf is a game played with skill, so there's a lot of things that we'll just never understand because skill happens

Rob 12:56

Correct.

Eric 12:57

in our

Rob 12:57

Yes

Eric 12:58

And so if we're always answering with certainty, we're probably doing ourselves a dissa- disservice as a coach and definitely as a student. What we can do is provide a level of, you know, experimentation, right? And try to work towards some answers, right? The things that work better, right? So the, the curiosity piece is exploration, like willing to, willing to go after and try different things. And I would say those are the most fun lessons. Like, "Hey, I know you've held the club in your hands exactly the same way since 1967. let's try this little tweak and just see what

Rob 13:44

Yeah.

Eric 13:44

Let's just see how it affects

Rob 13:46

Yeah

Eric 13:46

And when people are willing to try, it's so much fun to

Rob 13:49

100% agree

Eric 13:50

the curiosity, I think, is probably I think it's fair to say that if you've listened to us on this podcast for a few years now, you would know that you're listening to two pretty curious people, right? That are always looking to, to learn something new or figure something else out. In fact, a very good coach friend of mine, um, actually made a comment on a Facebook post me a couple weeks ago, which was really flattering, and she just said like, "Hey, I appreciate how you're always willing to look and learn and try something new, um, even though you've experienced such good success for 20-plus years coaching at a very high level." And I thought, I love to hear that, right? 'Cause that's the, that's the type of model that I wanna be, right, to both my students and the coaches that I mentor. And, um, I think that's how you get better at

Rob 14:41

Yeah, no doubt

Eric 14:42

just think And if you're always looking for that one right answer, maybe in golf that pr- that's gonna be tricky, right? Am I slicing it 'cause my elbow's in a weird position? I just don't know. I don't know. I don't know if that's the answer, right? I don't know. I cannot be certain is what we're trying to say,

Rob 15:01

Yes.

Eric 15:01

right?

Rob 15:02

I think that's why, you know, more and more, at least in my lessons, I'm starting with the growth mindset, fixed mindset information. Because if, if they, if they're bringing a fixed mindset to the lesson, and their motivations are to leave with certainty, then as I am offering up, "Hey, here's an option. Here's an option," that is met with friction big time. Like,

Eric 15:28

Yeah

Rob 15:29

sure in the past I've lost tons of students because I didn't, uh, consider their mindset they were bringing to the lesson. I had a growth mindset to their improvement, but they didn't. And so then when I'm going, like, "Okay, we're gonna explore this, we're gonna explore this," I guarantee that was viewed by some percentage of my prior clients as, "This guy's got no idea what he's doing." Right?

Eric 15:54

so interesting.

Rob 15:56

Yeah.

Eric 15:57

never thought of it that

Rob 15:58

Yeah.

Eric 15:59

Um, but yeah, I can totally, I can totally

Rob 16:03

100%, yeah

Eric 16:04

right? I guess if you- I guess the thing with golf is it's so I don't, I don't know how to define it. It's almost undefinable how you get better at golf in a lot of ways, right? So like, like if you, if your computer had a problem or your car had a problem, like if you take your car to the mechanic and you're like, "Hey, uh, it's making this noise." And

Rob 16:23

Угу

Eric 16:23

"Well, it could be this or it might be that, or we should try this, or maybe I'm

Rob 16:27

Not what you wanna hear.

Eric 16:29

It's not what you wanna hear because a machine just sort of works. There's like

Rob 16:32

Yes.

Eric 16:33

way that it

Rob 16:34

It's much more objec- yes. Mm-hmm

Eric 16:36

Right, and golf isn't, isn't that. Well, that's what we're trying to say, and I think a lot of golfers actually don't understand that, to be quite honest. Like, I think the more you play golf and the more you understand it, the more you realize that there's, there's style and there's skill and there's options and there's all these things, right? Um, but a lot of golfers just think like, "Tell me where to put my elbow. Where, what is the grip supposed to look like?" You know, quote-unquote, "What am I supposed to do here? How am I supposed to stand?" Right? Um, one, one of those like, you know, certainty things that really screws people up in my opinion is like, am I aiming properly?

Rob 17:13

yeah.

Eric 17:15

Right? I,

Rob 17:15

Yes

Eric 17:16

I, I t- I texted you the other day and then said, um, I wanted to do a, an episode on, uh, golf intervention hot takes, right? Which I

Rob 17:25

Oh yeah, that would, that would be fun too.

Eric 17:27

maybe a little Maybe

Rob 17:28

Next time

Eric 17:29

But, but one of it was the reason that came to mind was basically 'cause, like, I don't teach aim to beginners very often. Like, I just don't It's not a big

Rob 17:36

No, it's not

Eric 17:37

And, and I'm not gonna go into why here, but essentially, you know, if you think the answer is that you cer- you have to be standing on railroad tracks

Rob 17:48

Right

Eric 17:49

club face 90 degrees to your t- target and your toes perfectly parallel and hips and shoulders, um, good golfers really just don't do I mean, there are some that do that. There's a lot that don't do that. It is not a fundamental of good golf, right? You do You certainly do not have to do that, right? Um, and for a lot of golfers, it actually makes them worse at golf. Yeah. So again, this goes back to, like, the growth mindset and experimentation and curiosity. Like, hey, you know, I know you're doing this, but do you ever think about aiming over there and trying to hit a different shot?

Rob 18:22

Wonder... Yeah.

Eric 18:23

try it, right? Like, let's go try

Rob 18:25

The m-

Eric 18:26

when you're willing to, you can see some great

Rob 18:29

Yeah. A lot of times when, when players come and they're like, "Okay, like, where's my ball position need to be?" Like, if, if they're bringing more of a growth mindset to it, then when I say, "Hey, we're gonna... I'm basically gonna give you the range. Like, I probably don't see elite players put the ball more forward than this. I don't see them put it further back than that. I want you to explore both. I want you to see maybe what you notice." Again, met with friction, right? Whereas with the growth mindset, like if, if they're bringing a growth mindset to it, that's when like, "Oh, sw- okay, very cool. Like, it doesn't have to be in a certain place. I can actually use this if I need to, to kind of move the needle in certain different directions, and let's kind of explore and see what, what these options might give me," right? So it's just a totally different way of, of looking at improvement

Eric 19:16

So you've just started into bullet point number two,

Rob 19:19

Oh, sick. I don't even have the notes in front of me anymore. I'm, I'm relying on you to drive the ship here. That's good

Eric 19:25

you just had a baby, you sleep like one hour a night. Listen, I

Rob 19:28

Ja

Eric 19:28

okay. It's all good. Bullet point number two, experimentation versus validation.

Rob 19:33

Mm-hmm.

Eric 19:33

this is just basically what you were just

Rob 19:35

Yeah

Eric 19:35

right? It's like, um, a really good lesson taker is willing to try something and discover if it doesn't work well or discover if it does work well, right? Does that work for me? Doesn't it-- Does it not work for me? A, a fixed mindset golfer might say, "Hey, don't know. You-- That doesn't work for me. I tried it once or twice, it just doesn't work for me," right? "I need, I need validation. I need to-- I w- I need to try it and have you tell me that works right." Okay? And the experimentation is huge. And if you are willing to experiment, a bad shot isn't necessarily a bad outcome. And I tell people this all the time, and I think this has really helped me. It sorta takes an experienced instructor to get to this point, because when you're a young coach, when, when you try something with a student and they hit a couple quote unquote bad

Rob 20:30

Yes.

Eric 20:31

you get really

Rob 20:31

Oh my gosh, yes.

Eric 20:33

super nervous 'cause you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm making them worse."

Rob 20:37

Угу

Eric 20:39

I will tell you right now TrackMan has helped a lot with this, 'cause we can look at a metric sometimes and be like, "No, no, no, I know you missed that, but remember what we were working towards, and this-- we can see this metric improving." Things like low point, things like attack

Rob 20:57

Klemencki.

Eric 20:57

things like club

Rob 20:59

Yeah

Eric 20:59

we're go- club speed especially,

Rob 21:01

Yeah

Eric 21:02

Like, when you're trying to swing faster, you're likely not gonna hit a good shot right away, right? But that skill can develop, right? So if we understand skill development, it's huge. So I think that at the, at the bottom layer of all this is, like, versus fixed mindset and understanding the differences of swing and skill, things that we talk about all the time, right? That's like the-- that's the underlying of

Rob 21:25

Yes

Eric 21:26

So I think experimentation is something that, again, kinda like you were saying in the last bullet point, is sometimes a student can, if you don't frame it the right way, say, "I wonder if he's just throwing stuff at a wall and just

Rob 21:39

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric 21:42

Um- I'm trying to think of a really good... Do you have any really good, uh, stories about that from recent, like recent lessons that stick

Rob 21:52

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So like, I can think of one with a, with a pretty high-level player actually, um, when we were looking at grip, and hitting it pretty darn well. Had a, uh, a fairly strong closed face to path bias, right? Um, and the trail hand was not in a position that I typically prefer, I'll say. Straight up, I don't prefer. Um, so I said, "Hey, listen." I was like, "I'm gonna give you this option of how to change your attachment with that bottom hand, with the intention of seeing if we can neutralize your face to path a little bit." And the response was like, "Well, just tell me. Like, if, if, if you want me to do it, then I'll just do... And I'll figure it out." And I was like, "Well, wait a minute. Like, no, like, that's not why you're here. You're not here to get, like, the right answer and for me to be, like, the gatekeeper of, of what you do. You are the driver of the ship. You are the player. I'm the coach. I can give you areas to explore. This is a skill." I was like, I told him, I was like, "Hey, like, look, we've got two or three degrees that we need to play around with here. That's half of a second on a clock face. There are so many options available. Like, we can leave your grip the same and just skill train this bad boy, and have you leave and hold it the same way and be in good shape. We can mess around with different backswing pieces and, and see if we can change the bias a little bit. We can change your intention. Like, what's your idea of how the club is arriving into impact? Like, there's so many different ways we can go, but based off of my experience, I wanna give you this option first." And again, it was, like, met with, like, "But is this right?" I'm like, "No, it's not right. It's just different," right? It's a big, it's a big distinction there to make. Um, and I think that people with more of that fixed mindset, they, that, that idea that there are options, the idea that there isn't a right way oftentimes is so uncomfortable for them. Um, and so it's, yeah, absolutely. So we had to, we had to go through a little bit of like understand like, hey, what is actually required? And I kind of, I remember in that lesson we said, "Okay, what, what do you absolutely have to do to, to play? What are the absolutes?" You have to hold the grip, right? You gotta, like you can't push the club forward. Like you gotta make a backswing of some sort, right? You gotta have a certain amount of clubs, probably a certain amount of golf balls. You gotta have golf attire, right? You gotta make a tee time. Like there are like some absolutes like, but the way you hold it is not an absolute. Um, and it, I think the more we can remove the conditions to playing freely and playing the way we want, I think the better. I think the more we say, "Okay, you, you, you can only play freely, you can only play well if you hold it like this, if you stand here, if you move the club back in a certain way, if you do this in the downswing or do that in the down or at the top of the backswing or whatever." Like the more conditions that we put on this, going back to Dr. Pryor's, um, A shape versus V shape framework, um, in terms of how we shape our beliefs, um, the more conditions that we put on it, the smaller our margin of error is perceived to be, and then the more long-term widespread personal the consequences become, right? And so if we can start to remove the conditions, remove the doors that you have to walk through, so to speak, to play the way you want, well, it tends to open up and actually increase the perceived margin of error, and then the consequences become way more like specific, temporary, um, and external, which are much more likely to, to be accepted prior to going and playing. So this is all, this all kind of works together. I kind of got on a tangent there and, uh, got off a little bit off topic. On topic, but off topic at the same time. But

Eric 25:53

no, no,

Rob 25:53

yeah.

Eric 25:54

together. It all fits together because I think that it, it goes back to, you know, there, there isn't always just a right

Rob 26:02

Yeah

Eric 26:03

And so if there always just isn't a right answer, it, it, it lends to exploration or experimentation being a tenet of playing your best golf. And to your point, which I think you just made a great point, is that you've gotta be able to play freely. And I would say that, know, you hear horror stories in g- in golf instruction, and this, this is less and less these days because I think we understand it better. But, you know, you could name players that disappeared from the tour because they were trying to get better,

Rob 26:35

Yeah

Eric 26:35

and they will say that like, "Yeah, I was told I had to

Rob 26:39

Had to, must. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Eric 26:42

someone else's idea of how they should perform the best. And when you went through that with your player, you said, "Hey, here's our options, but you have to understand that I need you to play freely. You're a competitive player." When Rob says high-level player that he's working with, we're talking about very competitive player, right? These are like the top end of competitive players, and you cannot competitively play and not play with freedom. I mean, you can, but you're not gonna play your best. You've gotta

Rob 27:11

gonna be enjoyable either

Eric 27:12

No, you've gotta be able to swing with freedom. And so sometimes things are not your right answer, and this is where experimentation comes in. You've gotta find and explore, and you use your coach as the filter for helping you with those options, right? Because

Rob 27:26

Totally

Eric 27:27

of times, they're not experts, right? So they come into the lesson and they say, "Hey, you're my golf performance consultant. This is your life. It's not my life. I'm an accountant. Help me play better." Right? And that's what we're

Rob 27:39

Yeah.

Eric 27:39

We're help- we're the expert to give

Rob 27:41

I think,

Eric 27:42

to guide them through their exploration

Rob 27:44

especially true when it comes to swing instruction. Um, I think and that's why I'm such a huge fan of honestly, nowadays, like regardless of the level of player. Like even, even if it's a complete beginner golfer and everything from how they're holding it and how they're standing, how they're swinging is incredibly inconsistent, I will still start with the skill information for them because I think understanding that piece of like, hey, you are never, ever truly lost and stuck. Like, you can skill train literally, um, like pretty much, you can skill train what you're currently doing to get the ball functional, in play. Um, and again, for beginner golfers, it's not gonna be reliable right away. It's not gonna be any level predictable because the macro stuff is too inconsistent. So Eric, in our call the other day, we, we both agreed, and we were talking about this, is that really you, you get the benefit from skill training when the macro, right, the way you're holding it, the way you're standing, the rhythm and tempo, the freedom of your swing is consistent, right? If it's not, then you really don't get the benefit of skill training. But walking that back actually, and again, playing devil's advocate, I think understanding skill is maybe like the first most important thing because that's your awareness of what the club is doing to the ball, and that's what, that's what ma- is making the ball do what it's doing. So as long as golfers understand that you can calibrate your perception to get the ball doing something different, I think what that does is that opens up the instructor and the student before they get into swing training to know I don't have to come up with like the solution right here and right now for this. Like, we're gonna go through maybe a couple different options, two or three different options, and it's okay if you don't like any of them or if, if, or if none of them like really hit or like have a, have the desired outcome. We'll have next time. We'll have next week. We'll have a couple weeks from now, right? And, uh, can't step in the same river twice, so then maybe the same exact intervention next week does hit, and you're like, "Oh, okay, now I see the benefit to this." So again, it's like so many golfers when they come for, for lessons, they say, "Okay, well, my coach is gonna help me with my swing to make the ball do something different." And that's again, that's true in a sense, but it's actually not in a more truer sense. It's like we're gonna help you understand skill of what the club's doing to the golf ball. We're gonna give you ways to make the swing stuff more consistent so that you can develop skill more reliably. All right? I think that's an important distinction to make. So-

Eric 30:36

Well, that was basically topic number three. See, you're flowing right into them,

Rob 30:43

Oh, nice

Eric 30:45

skill development versus

Rob 30:46

Yeah, yeah

Eric 30:48

right? So, so a fixed mindset is basically what we talk about a lot on here, which is, especially in the learning

Rob 30:58

Yeah

Eric 30:59

if it was a bad, quote-unquote, bad shot, then it was a quote-unquote bad swing. And that, it just doesn't work like

Rob 31:05

Yeah.

Eric 31:06

right? And so if we're gonna set the foundation for learning, we have to really understand, like, swing is a little more difficult-- s- swing is a little easier to see. Skill is a lot dif- difficult to understand, right? And so it's something that's really played out through athleticism and through

Rob 31:24

Yep

Eric 31:25

And so the answer isn't always swing. Sometimes it's swing. A lot of times it's swing. Um, a lot of times it's skill, right? And so you have to be open to... And I will tell you that this one is so hard to communicate that I really

Rob 31:42

So difficult

Eric 31:43

a lot of golfers never understand it, and I wish they did.

Rob 31:49

No

Eric 31:50

they-- And I think that, I think a lot of times they-- I think there's times when, when listen about skill, but they

Rob 31:59

Mm-hmm. I don't.

Eric 32:00

believe it.

Rob 32:01

completely agree

Eric 32:03

the, the, problem I think, I would say the influence here is that we're so inundated. If you are somebody who's trying to get better at golf, you are so inundated with swing

Rob 32:17

Yes

Eric 32:18

all the time. The top of the backswing should look like this. Your hips should do this.

Rob 32:24

this, watch this move that only the pros do and only the pros know. It's the secret move.

Eric 32:31

There's a lot of weird swing stuff out there, right? And it's, it's a lot of times presented by younger coaches that aren't really all that experienced, and they're just try- you know, they're trying to get views on Instagram or whatever. And it's just visual stuff. It's always just visual. know, it's, it's always like your, your left heel should be here, your right foot should do this, your, you know, your, your wrists should be flat, your wrists should be bowed, you sh- you know,

Rob 32:58

Mhm

Eric 33:00

if you believe that stuff because you're inundated with it all the time, it's really hard then

Rob 33:05

Just shake it. Yeah

Eric 33:06

saying like, "Oh, well it could be this, this, or this, or it could be that, that, or that,"

Rob 33:10

Yeah。

Eric 33:10

But that doesn't sell in, in 20-second clips. It doesn't, right? And so it's actually really hard to understand, in my opinion. Like, I think you have to be really, really open to sitting down and exploring and thinking about and searching your soul to

Rob 33:26

Yes

Eric 33:27

"Okay, I really understand

Rob 33:29

Угу,

Eric 33:29

means."

Rob 33:30

yeah

Eric 33:30

This is why we talk about it so much, because I feel like it's just the drum that needs beat more, and not a lot of people beat it, you know? And we talked about from day one we were gonna do long-form podcasting to help people get better at golf, which seems ridiculous because like how does that, how could that make sense? But it, but you and I know that we've been doing this for decades and that learning is, it's a process.

Rob 33:57

concepts take time. Yeah

Eric 33:58

the concepts, and if you, if you understand the concepts, you know how to develop, and that's the foundation for improvement, right? Not, "Hey, this is your quick tip to not slicing," or something, right? So you're always thinking that swing equals shot, good swing, good shot, bad swing, bad shot. Like, it just doesn't work like

Rob 34:18

Nope, it does not

Eric 34:19

work like that. And um, and I think you detailed very well why, um, just a minute ago. So bullet point number four, moving right along, and I know this one, Rob, you talk about this a lot, which is learning versus performing in a lesson, right? And so A growth-minded golfer is gonna come to a lesson and wanna explore and do things that they know in the long term makes them better. They really aren't that concerned about the short term, It doesn't- their ego isn't, uh,

Rob 34:56

That's a big one, the ego.

Eric 34:57

right, right, to s- to worry about, like, "Oh, I just, I just shanked one," or, "Oh, I just topped it," or whatever. Um, they're more willing to, to really screw up in the short I don't know what you'd say, make it more difficult in the short term. I always tell people learning's messy, so you're gonna, you're gonna have things. Like, it's gonna look fuzzy for a little while if you're improving because improving doesn't happen in the safety of that. The safety is what keeps you exactly where you always are, right? And so if you're gonna improve, you've

Rob 35:28

Hundred percent

Eric 35:29

be willing to screw up a little bit, right?

Rob 35:33

Yes, absolutely. So there's like two, two like pretty foundational examples of this. Um, one that we harp on all the time is that you develop skill through reference points. You don't do it through just trying to repeat some desired solution over and over again. So that, and what that r- reference po- point building involves is finding the margins of error on both sides of the spectrum, right? So a good classic example is got a golfer shanking it, guess what? You pro- they probably need to understand how to shank it more right? So that then they know where to work away from. Okay, can you access the other end of the club now, right? So whatever you felt there, can you show me the exact opposite? And then if they are able to, then the brain now has reference points of like, oh, there's the toe, there's the heel, but let me find the in-between. So that process, guess what? You're gonna be on the range hitting balls sideways, right? Which is not gonna necessarily, if you're not used to this, doing this all the time, um, a large subset of my clients now actually find enjoyment in that now when they go to the range. They're like, "Oh boy, like, I'm gonna like freak some people out here 'cause I'm gonna be like hitting alternating shots. Like, I'm gonna hit one way right, one way left, and then I'm gonna hit one down the middle, and I'm doing that predictably every time." So, um, the more you do it, you get more comfortable with that. You get more accepting of that. Um, but again, in that process, if you're not used to that, absolutely it's not gonna feel as comfortable, for sure, right? It's, you're, you are quite literally Messing up on purpose to figure out kind of where the middle is. So that's gonna be one. The other classic example, um, that's really good is for transfer learning, right? So let's say that you've done your skill training, check the box, you've done your swing training, check the box, and you're trying to develop this very sort of consistent, um, consistent stability to your intent. Like, hey, what, what is the pattern of behaviors that you're gonna take onto the golf course? Because we want that to be very, very stable and consistent. Well, if you're going to learn that, what learning requires is forgetting, right? So if you don't ever have a chance to forget something, you don't have the chance to remember it, and it's the remembering that kind of makes it encode into long-term memory. Whereas if you do not get a chance to forget, and therefore remember, the odds of that, like literally it's called like the myelin getting like encoded, like literally like wrapped in, um, that, that those myelin sheaths and like strengthen the pattern essentially come way, way down, right? So what does that look like? Well, you're gonna be hitting shots, but the more time you can spend in between shots, it's giving you that ability to forget and then therefore remember. Well, what do we know about what happens to performance when you space things out? Performance typically goes down, right? Because, because when you're doing a shot and hey, it might not be what you want, but then you like real quick rake it and then like try to fix it on the very next one, great, you came up with a solution, but you never h-had the ability to forget and then remember, right? So again, like yes, you got that short-term performance bump, but you didn't necessarily do it in a way that's gonna transfer All right, another one would be variability, right? So introducing variability in terms of like the lie, the slope, the wind, the club choice. Like as soon as you introduce variability in your environment, the odds of the performance, right, being, you know, your, your, your performance level is going to drop. But the thing is, like whatever it is that you are learning in that environment is way more likely to transfer to the golf course. So that's a couple examples of, um, desirable difficulty, right? You're trying to create this desirable difficulty in your practice to increase the likelihood of transfer, right? Whereas if you, if you try to shape your learning environment, if you try to shape your practice in a way that's going to make the performance in that practice as high as possible, you're going to reduce the time in between shots. You're going to reduce the variability in between shots. You're gonna make-- you're gonna basically change the task to make it more likely for you to succeed. Like you'll, you'll widen the boundaries, right? You will essentially do what you need to do to feel good in that environment. And the problem is like, hey, yeah, you're, you might be feeling good, but you're not actually helping yourself to take that onto the golf course

Eric 40:20

So good. There's, th- that's, this is probably our deepest bullet point, to

Rob 40:24

Yeah

Eric 40:24

Like, this one we could go on and on. It's like- The training aspect is amazing. We've done whole episodes

Rob 40:31

Yeah

Eric 40:31

right? Okay, so someone comes in and say, "Rob, I'm, I'm hitting everything fat." Like, I'm gonna give like a, like a very bland

Rob 40:39

Yeah, sure

Eric 40:39

This happens all the time. my irons fat. Okay. So you look at it in the low point of their swing arc, as measured by Trackman, is one to two inches behind the ball with a seven iron,

Rob 40:49

Yeah.

Eric 40:50

And actually, this person's a middle handicap, like not a bad

Rob 40:54

Угу

Eric 40:55

actually make contact pretty decently. The margin for error is so low, right,

Rob 41:01

Угу

Eric 41:01

changes and things happen, they're gonna hit a percentage of them fat. But if they stand in practice and just hit the ball, especially on a mat, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right off the middle of the face, and it looks good. Right? They've learned to, at that low point of the arc, control the club face and the arc height and all these things, right? Okay, so you say, "Well, here's the things we need to do to improve this for you. We need to get your low point a few inches after the ball." Let's just go for that metric, right? next swing, their low point is four inches after. So they've changed it by six inches, which is a win. they gonna hit a good shot on that swing? Absolutely not.

Rob 41:37

Not likely

Eric 41:38

likelihood of that shot being good is very low, and a lot of times they'll go like, "Oh." Right?

Rob 41:46

Yes

Eric 41:47

The feedback is contact, right? That's the first level of feedback. And you or I would go, "No, no, no, no, no. Look, low point moved in the right direction. We've talked about what we're trying to do here, right? Let's do it again. Let's do it again." And we know three, four, five swings later, the skill starts to catch up. They start to make some adjustments. Maybe we move the ball position, maybe we move the distance from the ball. Boom, boom, boom. They start catching the middle of the face. Oh my gosh, I'm compressing it. On the range would that have happened without guidance and Trackman and feedback and encouragement? It would not have happened, right? Because bad shot equals bad swing. see what I'm saying? 'Cause we don't think about skill, and that is the point that we're trying to make there. So the performing, especially in practice, it should be messy. Learning is messy. It's not pretty, and if it's pretty, you're probably not getting better. That's probably what... that's what we're

Rob 42:40

Yeah

Eric 42:41

All right. Our final, our final bullet par- point, which is the one that's, I would say to me, kind of the foundation of it all, which is in coaching, right? Dependence versus independence, right? And I-- when you were my intern, I know I told you this because I tell everybody this, right? That your job as an instructor is to basically guide self-learning for students. Like you want them to understand what helps make them better Right? So that they can coach themselves up and become less dependent on you, right? You're trying to draw out of them the most free ability to swing the club and perform that you possibly can. Your goal is not to indoctrinate

Rob 43:26

Yeah.

Eric 43:27

with all the right answers, right? That's what the big ego person does, and if you go into a lesson looking for that, I think your ability to improve becomes very, very, very limited. What say you, Rob Fiaz?

Rob 43:42

100%. Yeah, it's, um... I think when we talk about growth versus fixed mindset, I think it, it depends on what you're valuing, right? So are you valuing the feedback loop or are you valuing the outcome of this one particular shot and what that might mean for you, right? Um, so the feedback loop is what we're trying to educate our players on, right? After every shot, there's really three... The way I teach it, at least, there's three questions you could ask yourself. Number one is, was the swing basically the same? Did, did you swing it freely? Did it feel like walking? Uh, was it on time, right? These are all synonyms. Was it resonant? Um, all of the, of the work that we do in training the swing is intended to create this efficiency of like, hey, you're creating a, a lot of energy relative to work and consistency. Meaning like it's just from a, from a time standpoint, from a freedom standpoint, it's just not changing much from swing to swing. The geometry of the swing, like where the club is in space and whatnot, absolutely is gonna change and probably should change depending on the shot you're trying to hit. But that underlying kind of that organization of time doesn't really change much, right? So number one is, was the swing free? Second question, were the skills inside my dispersion, right? So essentially based off of what I was trying to do with the shot, how was the impact location, AKA arc location, right? How was the face-to-path relative to what I wanted, and then club head speed relative to what I wanted, right? And it's totally possible like, hey, yes, the skills were in my dispersion, my skills lined up, and then the outcome of the shot may not have been what I wanted. That's when it's, hey, was it my decision? Was it my prediction? The strategy elements, right? How were-- How did they line up? And if you get golfers with that ability to, without me saying a word after a shot, say, "Yeah, swing was on time. I was on task. I was focused on what I was trying to do. The skills were mostly what I wanted. The impact location was good. The speed was good, just the face was a little closed," that's like... That is like chef's kiss. Like when you start to see them self-learning, then you know you've done your job as an instructor.

Eric 46:04

Yeah. And, um, that's what it's all about, right? So you, you don't You're not trying to create a golfer who's so dependent on your specific feedback just to

Rob 46:18

Oh my gosh. I, ugh.

Eric 46:20

It's

Rob 46:21

I tell, I tell people this is like, I know that I've messed up when golfer hits a shot that they don't like, and they just look... And well, I'll say this is like, I know I've messed up if this is a returning client, okay? If this is someone I've seen more than once. But if they hit a shot they don't like, and they look right back at me and say, "What did I do there?" That absolutely, like that is nails on the chalkboard for me, and it's not because of anything they're doing wrong. It's because for me, I know I haven't educated them as well as I, as I could have, right? Or

Eric 46:57

No,

Rob 46:57

just, yeah

Eric 46:59

I would say you've educated them, it's just they, their reaction is still gonna be

Rob 47:03

Habitual. Yeah, they've-- It's just breaking that habit is, is gonna be a thing for sure

Eric 47:08

what happened, this is the whole basis of this, is your answer to that in your mind is, "I don't know."

Rob 47:14

Exactly

Eric 47:15

And you can't say that. No, you can. I'll say, "Well, I mean, you missed." Right? I mean, sometimes we miss. And y- you could ma- this is what I think... Man, I, I hate to be critical of coaching, but I think there's coaches that'll just make up an answer, They'll just say something to make the student

Rob 47:33

When their priority in the session is the other person's perception of them in that session

Eric 47:39

c- correct. They're just trying to impress, right? And so point being, the curious coach is gonna be more like, "Well, let's, let's think about it. Let's, let's, let's go through it for a second. the answer is right this second, like immediately? I don't, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you did. You missed, right? You hit it I could tell you you hit it on the bottom of the club, or I could tell you,

Rob 48:00

But I have no idea, I have no idea what it was in your body that caused the club to be a half an inch higher at impact than what you wanted

Eric 48:08

Correct. So it's a swing, swing and shot correlation

Rob 48:13

Yeah

Eric 48:13

again, right? And so we, that is not, we, we talk about that with our students when they, when they miss it, it's not necessarily our fault. It's like they just have to keep learning. We have to keep reiterating, like and shot maybe not always the same. There is the skill thing, right? And I... When you play tennis, when you play pickleball, when you

Rob 48:32

It's so obvious, isn't it?

Eric 48:34

it's very obvious, but for golf it seems less

Rob 48:36

It does, and I don't know why. It's the-- because the ball's not moving

Eric 48:40

I think we, we feel like we should be able to control it

Rob 48:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric 48:44

because the ball isn't

Rob 48:45

Yeah, I agree.

Eric 48:46

Um

Rob 48:47

that, that I thi-- that's actually such an interesting point. I think in tennis, we'll just use tennis, it is a relatively known truth that your, that where the ball is relative to you is your perception, right? Like, yeah, you're making a guess of where the ball is, but you don't know exactly where the ball is. Whereas in golf, it feels like you know where the ball is.

Eric 49:17

You're

Rob 49:17

You're certain, right? That, that feeling of certainty of I can, I know exactly where this ball is, I think is what maybe, again, I'm just spitballing here, but maybe is like the first domino of that. 'Cause it's like there is a level of certainty there, and it feels like it's certain even though it's not. Like even in golf, you, you don't exactly know where the ball is in space. Like your brain's always running a prediction on this stuff anyway. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's such an interesting point you made there

Eric 49:48

I watch more tennis these days than I have in a while 'cause I have a daughter that plays, and she likes to watch it, so we'll watch it. Um, and I remember watching Coco Gauff at the US Open, I believe. We were watching Coco, she just hit this wide open, like, easy, like, you know, it's one of those ones where she hit this great, like, down the line thing, and the, and the woman chased it down and, you know, barely got it over the net

Rob 50:13

Угу

Eric 50:14

in any position at all. And Coco has this, like, easy put

Rob 50:18

Yeah.

Eric 50:19

And slams it right into the middle of the

Rob 50:20

Nice. Yeah

Eric 50:21

right? And do you think Coco turned around to her coach and was like, "What'd I do wrong there?"

Rob 50:28

W- how, why, was I ho- was I holding the racket in the wrong way?

Eric 50:33

Did I, what was that? What happened? No, Coco didn't do that. She said, "Ah, I didn't get," you know, "I didn't get a

Rob 50:39

Yeah.

Eric 50:39

right? And

Rob 50:39

sure her brain was aware of, of what the, the racket did to the ball to make it go in the net, but she didn't then start explaining it beyond that

Eric 50:49

Sometimes we miss, right? I think that's like

Rob 50:52

It's the bottom 16% of the dispersion. Yeah, 100%.

Eric 50:55

sometimes we miss. Why can't Aaron Rodgers hit the broad side of a barn more than eight yards downfield right

Rob 51:01

Oh boy, here we go.

Eric 51:03

Okay, Steeler fan here, full disclosure. But yeah, why, why? Why can DK Metcalf not catch when the

Rob 51:10

She, he, yeah.

Eric 51:13

Right? It's because, because these sports are hard,

Rob 51:15

Yes

Eric 51:16

we miss, right? And I think that, know, as, as a that are occasional golfers, some of which not great athletes, and then are playing a extremely difficult sc- sport, we have to have some acceptance at

Rob 51:30

Угу

Eric 51:30

right? We just have to have this acceptance that sometimes we're not gonna be able to perform.

Rob 51:36

Yeah

Eric 51:37

So that being said, I think that is the culmination of our how to be a better lesson taker episode, which was really fun for

Rob 51:48

Yeah, that was great. That was good

Eric 51:50

And again, I hope that, especially that early part, which was a little awkward, Robbie and I reading back and forth. It felt, sounded like something in church or something, like reading Bible verses. I don't know. It was a, it was a little, it was a little awkward. We don't usually read anything on

Rob 52:03

we don't

Eric 52:04

But I wanted to kinda go through... I wanted people to think, like, like I was saying, I want you to, to think about yourself

Rob 52:12

Yeah

Eric 52:13

put yourself, like who am I in these moments? Am I in column A or am I in column B? And why, why am I there, and what can I do to improve that, right? How can I grow? Because if you're there signing up for lessons with Rob Fails or I, you're a pretty serious golfer, right? You're not doing this casually. Like it's a, it's a pretty big commitment to come see one of us for a golf lesson, and you've had to plan it out, and it's a, you know, it's, it's an investment in time and money. And you want to play this game better 'cause it is a beautiful sport, and it challenges you every single level. And the thing that drives me crazy is people playing defense on themselves, And I think that the social media age has really ushered in a lot of this, and I, and I hope that we can maybe be a little bit of a voice in the wilderness for saying like, "You can do this. focus on the things that really matter. Let's forget about the things that don't matter. Let's put a process together for getting better at golf." You can do it, right? You can do it. So with that being said, I thank you for tuning into the Golf Intervention podcast. I will say, Rob Fails, I would like for you to plug, if you want to, your upcoming Codebreakers

Rob 53:34

Mm-hmm

Eric 53:35

So Rob and a group of his esteemed, instructor friends, all very, very, very smart, very, very accomplished, put together a retreat for golf instructors called the Codebreakers Retreat.

Rob 53:48

Yeah. Yeah. So if you're, if you're a curious coach, uh, if you're looking to do a deep dive, we're gonna have the man, the myth, the legend, Dr. Raymond Prior himself, uh, with us for two days. So you're gonna be with Dr. Prior, have a chance to ask him any question you want, listen to his, uh, new res- like legitimately new research on practice, uh, and habits for these two days. Um, it's gonna be, uh, he'll be our feature pre- PhD presenter. Um, we're gonna be presenting as well, so I'll be doing a presentation. Sean Kennedy, Martin Grace, Garrett Trussard will be doing presentations, uh, over the course of these two days. It's at Skokie Country Club, which is a great facility just outside Chicago, Illinois, October 26th, 27th. If you'd like to register, uh, or just check out the, the informa- the information on it, uh, it's, uh, codebreakersgolf.com, uh, and that's where you can go to, uh, to get that info

Eric 54:48

I wish I could go because it's gonna be awesome. And if you are, if you're an instructor, for sure, um, you will get your, you get your points for this,

Rob 54:58

Yep,

Eric 54:59

your

Rob 54:59

for sure

Eric 54:59

So it'll be set up for that, so if you're looking for that, although it's at the beginning of the cycle, so people aren't as desperate.

Rob 55:04

Right

Eric 55:05

um, but yeah, you shouldn't wanna be desperate to go to this. It's gonna be really good. I mean, two days with Dr.

Rob 55:12

Is, yeah, pretty good.

Eric 55:14

come on. Can you

Rob 55:16

It's gonna be hard to beat.

Eric 55:18

Can you imagine what that would cost? Like, if you were

Rob 55:20

I know.

Eric 55:21

Oh my

Rob 55:23

I know. I know.

Eric 55:24

The man, and

Rob 55:26

He's so good. Oh my gosh, he's the best. Yeah

Eric 55:28

cool. So that would be amazing. I wish I could

Rob 55:32

Yeah.

Eric 55:32

Next

Rob 55:33

Wish you could too, man

Eric 55:35

So thank you again for tuning in to the Golf Intervention Podcast. glad to be back on after a s- short paternity leave, but this is the time of year where things start to slow down for Rob Fails and I, and I think you're gonna see some, uh, episodes pumping out. And, um, as always, you can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Substack, so be watching out for some Substack content at thegolfintervention.substack.com. And I guess that's it. That's all I got for today.

Rob 56:09

Appreciate y'all

Eric 56:10

Thanks for tuning in