Take These Steps to Improve Your Short Game

Eric 0:00

Okay, here we go. And welcome back to the Golf Intervention Podcast. My name is Eric Leighton. I am a golf instructor from Richmond, Virginia. I'm here with my co-host, Rob Fairoz. is also a golf instructor Charlottesville, Virginia. we are here to help you play better golf. And on today's episode, are gonna take you through the action steps of improving your short game, step by step summarizing the last three episodes that we've put out, which I've enjoyed listening to and, I've had some good conversations with my students about. So if you haven't listened to those episodes, go back and check it out. It's been a series on short game, and today we are summarizing. I felt like there was a little hole in what we were doing because it was like we laid everything out, and then I thought, "Okay, now, if I'm a listener and I learned a lot from it, I might be getting better, I might not be getting better, but what is it, Eric, what is it, Rob, that I need to do? What are my steps I need to take?" And I think we did lay that out in there, but this is the summary, right? You always end a good speech with tell them what you've told them, right? I learned that in college at Penn State when I was taking my speech class. They said, "Tell them what you're gonna tell them, then you tell them, then you tell them what you told them," and this is the tell them what you told them. So welcome action steps to improve your short game. I'm a little bit excited about this one, Rob, kinda fired up

Rob 1:28

We're always fired up

Eric 1:30

So fired up. I sprung this question on you a few minutes ago. I said, "If someone walks up to you at a cocktail party and says, 'Oh, my gosh, you teach golf. That's so cool.'" This happens all the time, by the way. And you st- all the time. So it's either like, "Oh, man, I slice it," or, "Should I get this driver?" Or whatever. It's fine. All those questions are great, and we answer them for the good of the game. But if someone says to you, "I really stink at the short game." By the way, people say this all the time. do I get better?" These are your action steps right here. We're about to lay out the action steps. So kinda sorted out how we wanna summarize this. I think, again, if you go back and listen to the episodes we did, you'll kind of glean the answer anyway. But we're gonna summarize in this episode, we'll call it, a short summary. never done a short

Rob 2:24

No, this could, this could be, this could crash and burn, but we're going for it.

Eric 2:29

I'll edit that part out when we get to, like, minute, you know, 96. So steps. Step

Rob 2:39

Don't miss the green

Eric 2:40

is step one? Don't miss the green. Step- See that? Hit, hit the ball on the

Rob 2:46

I just hit on the green. All

Eric 2:46

level golfer you are,

Rob 2:47

right, just kidding. Yep

Eric 2:49

as you know, listener, if you've never listened to us before, maybe you will now, we try to contextualize the learning, performance of golf into basically three, eh, we've added a fourth level of golf because tour player is a thing, and it matters., It's just such a minute kind of level of golfer. So we say level one golfer is a beginner, somewhere between beginner and basically bogey golfer, and then you've got level two golfer, which is from that just slightly better than bogey golfer basically all the way to scratch, and that scratch golfer probably roughly averages 75, 76 scoring average. And then level three is below that all the way to tour player, and tour player is, like, point whatever percent of golfers. But they are... They have their own thing 'cause they're just very good at what they do. And if you wanna get to tour player level, I feel like we have the answers to that, so we should share them. so if you're a beginner golfer, what matters to a level four golfer is not the same., It's not the same at all. There's parts of it that are the same, but what you're trying to get out of your short game, what you demand out of your shots is not gonna be the same, for good reason. so as we we contextualize that story, we start with: What would be my first step improving my short game? And I think it's just what, what we said. We have to have an awareness of where we stand in our short game. Isn't that

Rob 4:15

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. You have, you gotta have an awareness of what is relevant, for where you're at and the level that you're trying to get to, from an, from a performance kind of from a scoring or an outcome standpoint. You gotta figure out 'cause some people are surprised. Like, they, they're surprised that either like, "Hey, th- my short game isn't as far off as I think it is." And then sometimes people see the stats and like, "Oh my gosh, there's this huge chasm", right, "between where I'm at now and where I need to get to." And so, yeah, we can, we can probably go ahead and, and just get into some of those stats, Eric, if that, if that sounds good to you. Okay. Yeah. So, for level one golfers, the number one stat that we have them keep track of is shots to green. So which basically all of the swings from the tee box to the green. That includes penalty shots, that includes disruptors, which are effective penalties, but not penalties by the rules of golf,, things of that nature. And so within short game, a lot of times for a level one golfer, their shots to green number could be lower due to the number of times they are quite simply missing the green,, with their wedges inside of 40 yards. So we put the premium for level one golfers on just tracking that shots to green number, and within that, I'm trying to get them aware of, hey, how many of my shots to green were just simply missed greens inside of 40 yards? And because of their dispersion size, if you think about, hey, if they hit 100 shots, they're gonna have this shotgun blast pattern. Because that shotgun blast is so big, it's very rare that they're gonna be able to actually... And i- it's not the case, you know, when you get just off the green, when you're, you know, 5, 10 yards off the green. What w- what I'm talking about more is the, like, the 30 to 40 yarders. For those specifically, it's very rare for them that because their dispersion size is so big, that they're really able to attack flags, and we don't actually really care for them too, too much about proximity. For them, it's gonna be how do I maximize the number of times where I'm off the green and I'm, now I'm on the green after one shot?

Eric 6:22

Mm-hmm. And there, so we kind of, we kind of work through the story of that a

Rob 6:26

Right

Eric 6:27

right? But I would say that you, what you're saying is there, understand who you are, and maybe you need to st- start keeping track a little bit of how many times am I missing the green in a round? I'll ask people that question, "Oh, I'm losing 10 shots in my short game." A tr- people will

Rob 6:42

Yes.

Eric 6:43

me in lessons a lot. "I'm losing five shots a round." I, I wanna know a little bit more about what that means

Rob 6:49

Mm-hmm.

Eric 6:49

of the time, right? So how are you assessing that you're losing five shots a round? Sometimes it's a, it's a medium player who's concept is I should get it up and down a-

Rob 6:58

Right.

Eric 6:59

or more than half the time,

Rob 7:00

No

Eric 7:01

not reasonable. Um, and so, or it's like, "No, I really am not good, and I'm missing the green a lot." And maybe that five shots is actually in

Rob 7:12

Right

Eric 7:12

right? So we have to keep track of this in some way, shape, or form, right? And we've said on this in the past, there are some tools for that now, and it's funny 'cause we've said anything that uses strokes gained will point out in a way the deficiency but not really tell you what the deficiency is. They'll just say, "Oh, your, your short game is not good compared

Rob 7:34

Yes.

Eric 7:34

10 handicap or

Rob 7:35

What do I do with that information, right?

Eric 7:37

Correct. So I actually noticed some of the marketing for Arccos recently has been saying we understand the biggest thing we did, the deficiency was is great that you're telling me this, but I

Rob 7:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah

Eric 7:52

So I think they are trying to... And I don't use Arccos. I don't play enough to use it, so I'm not sure exactly what they're

Rob 7:57

Mm-hmm.

Eric 7:58

But I think they're trying to

Rob 7:59

Yeah

Eric 7:59

it a little bit more in that sense. So I gotta know where I stand, right? And so as a level one golfer, it's like number one thing is I gotta keep track. If I don't keep track of anything else, how many times

Rob 8:08

That's it. That's it, 100%.

Eric 8:10

kinda keep that in. Right. Doesn't really change that much in level two except for, there's like a proximity

Rob 8:16

Right. So in level two, what we're gonna be starting looking at is,, what we call P12s, which is basically getting the ball inside of 12 feet in one shot less than the par value. So if it's par three, that means that, hey, if you missed the green on the first shot, your next shot, your second shot, is gonna end up inside 12 feet. And for level two golfers to get all the way down to 76, basically scratch golfer, we're looking for that P12 number to be definitely north of 50%, with of those probably at least 50% of, of those being inside six. And, and inside six is not really the number that we look at for level two golfers. So if I have like a, an entry level two golfer, let's say that they're averaging between 88 and 82, I'm just gonna have them basically, again, keep track of their shots to green, 'cause number one is get it on the green, and then number two is their P12. So of all the shots that you do hit the green with your short game shot, what percentage of those is stopping inside 12 feet, and we're looking for at least 50% as being the goal there.

Eric 9:23

So that's what you should be

Rob 9:24

Yep

Eric 9:25

you don't use some type of stat tracking app. So you should be writing this down, not if

Rob 9:29

Yeah, no.

Eric 9:29

but listen to it again,

Rob 9:31

Yeah

Eric 9:31

some notes. So I'm a 12 handicap. H- you gotta k- you gotta write down what he just told you, right? So I need to hit it inside 12 feet. I think also on the other side of that story is realizing that 12 feet in,

Rob 9:43

Mm-hmm

Eric 9:44

right? And not saying, as a 12 handicap, I should hit it to three feet every time, or f- if it's not inside five feet, I, I mean, I've done something wrong. No, it just doesn't work like that, right? But you are trying to build up your skill this level,

Rob 9:58

Yes

Eric 9:59

Which we'll talk about in a little bit. But it's I'm trying to get then into level three, which plays out in a

Rob 10:05

Correct. Yep. So

Eric 10:06

not,

Rob 10:06

absolutely. So the, the P12 number is relevant because if you're consistently outside of 12 feet for those level of golfers, again, for golfers shooting between 88 and 76, which is admittedly a huge bucket of golfers, but the three-putt percentage really actually is a thing if you get your average proximity outside of 12 feet. So getting it inside 12 feet is great because the three-putt percentage inside 12 drops tremendously. And by definition, you're gonna start making some. You're gonna start to get more of them up and down than you would for sure. But the six number is really, again, for level three golfers, that's gonna be for them where that make percentage is roughly 50%, right? So if we're getting it inside of six feet, now we have a greater than 50% chance of getting it up and down and saving par. And that is for those golfers really the most relevant 'cause they're trying to... And really they're probably hitting 12 greens, 11 to 13 greens. So you gotta think like, all right, so there are, you know, probably six scenarios where they have short game chances. So we're really looking for three or four of those being inside six feet and then understanding like, hey, you're gonna make, you know, most of... You're gonna- you're- if you're inside six feet, well, that's also gonna include one that you hit to two feet and one that you hit to, to four feet, right? So it's not just, okay, they're all at six feet. They're gonna be inside six. So statistically speaking, you're, you're gonna be, probably north of 50% or around 50% up and down percentage as well, total up and down percentage. 'Cause there's a chance that you drop, y- that you make a putt outside of six feet as well. So again, just we're playing the odds here 'cause for as a level three golfer getting from 76 average, which is scratched down to 72, we've gotta get that, um, up and down percentage above 50% or really at least 50%. If you're at 50%, you could probably get down there, but it's gonna be tough. We've gotta get it, you know, a little bit north of 50. So getting at least 50% of our short game shots inside of six feet is really what you're gonna wanna track there.

Eric 12:18

Perfect. So we're writing that down and we're taking note. And then we get to tour

Rob 12:23

Yeah, you're gonna want it closer to 60 for sure

Eric 12:26

yeah. Yeah, you gotta get it up and down. What is the tour

Rob 12:29

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Eric 12:30

from

Rob 12:30

Exactly. And again, that's baking in because let's say, hey, they, they're gonna hit 13-ish greens, right? That means they're gonna have f- five, basically five opportunities. Well, if they're getting three out of five of those, um, you know, let's say they make, two, that's just being very conservative. Well, it's a tour pro and they're incredible putters, like that still gives them that opportunity to make the one that's a lit- maybe a little bit outside six, maybe they stop it at, at seven or, or eight feet and they, and they can pour that one in, and there you go. You're get- you're-- they're getting their, um, up and down percentage around 60%, which is, which is what we're shooting for

Eric 13:09

AimPoint founder and inventor Mark Sweeney said on this show, which is a stat that just always sticks out in my mind, is that 85% of putts made on the PGA Tour are

Rob 13:19

Yeah

Eric 13:20

feet, right? And so, to give yourself the real chance of making that putt, I gotta get it inside that. you're talking about tour players hitting that, that amount of greens. I don't know if you saw, probably not, but I was watching the, um, Champions Tour had their Players Championship, goes by a different name, it was

Rob 13:40

Mm-hmm.

Eric 13:40

Firestone, and Zach Johnson won,, going away, and he hit seven greens in regulation in the

Rob 13:47

Nice.

Eric 13:48

and shot like... What did he shoot? He

Rob 13:50

Yeah, that's crazy.

Eric 13:51

at

Rob 13:51

That's am- that's amazing

Eric 13:53

chipped in twice on the last,

Rob 13:55

Yeah

Eric 13:56

These guys are insane, and gals, I should say, are just insane with their short game. And you give them a straightforward chip a nice lie, that thing is, that thing is close to the hole. I mean, it is really rare they're not inside of six feet. And then as you ramp up the difficulty, they're

Rob 14:16

Mm-hmm.

Eric 14:16

giving themselves a really good chance, for the reasons we're about to talk about. So that gives you a jumping-off point.

Rob 14:23

Yeah

Eric 14:24

don't track your stats using something like Arccos or some other, stat keeping tool, um, this will be a good way

Rob 14:34

Definitely

Eric 14:35

it, right? So if you lo- if you keep track of that. And so now we know where we stand,

Rob 14:38

Yes

Eric 14:39

where I stand. I can kinda look at the, I can look at the statistics based on the level of player that I am and my scoring and see what's sticking out, and if I'm trying to improve, what's the next level look like? You know, if I'm a level two player trying to get to l- you know, level three player, what do I need to do? So that's just helping me create the

Rob 14:57

Correct. And I realized real quick,

Eric 14:58

see where

Rob 14:59

yeah, I

Eric 15:00

Yeah.

Rob 15:00

didn't for, uh, I didn't re- I realized that I've left out the shots to green number for level one. We're looking at, to get to the end of level one is around 52, and then, you know, 56 being kind of like if, if you're a 56 shots to green, then you got a chance if the other parts of the game are really good of getting below kind of into level two, but, the odds aren't gonna be awesome. So yeah, we're looking down to get to be, you know, in that 52 shots to green range. So just take a look and say, "Hey, well, what percentage of those", let's say like, "Hey, I'm at 54 or 55 and I need to get down to or I'd like to get down to 52, you know, can I find, you know, two-ish, one or one or two, one or two shots a round where I'm missing the green with a wedge inside of 40 yards?" And that would be priority number one that we're looking at.

Eric 15:48

Exactly. So then now I know where I stand. So step number two in improving my short game gonna go into what we really talked about with strategy,

Rob 16:00

Right

Eric 16:00

and swing, right? I've gotta figure out in that story it is I need to work on g-get the n- to get the data to improve essentially, right? The proximity, we'll call it. I couldn't come up with

Rob 16:15

We got there.

Eric 16:15

while ago. You know, the days are,

Rob 16:17

Yeah.

Eric 16:17

long for me, and I'm like, "P-closest to

Rob 16:20

with a P.

Eric 16:21

proximity. The proximity number." So that's the story, right? So what we're saying is basically if you sum up strategy, skill, and swing like we talked about in the last three shows, it plays out in your proximity

Rob 16:34

Correct. Yeah.

Eric 16:34

and your disruptors. I think, uh, you could

Rob 16:36

Yep

Eric 16:36

together, right? And so now we go into those and we have to determine what is it that I need to do. And like we said, you wanna focus in this order. Start with strategy. I think that strategy is obviously not... I think that strategy's the least invasive place to

Rob 16:54

Absolutely

Eric 16:55

anything I have a choice in doing, so it's not, it's not technique-based. It's brain-based, right? and then you go into skill, which are I think where and I would say most of the improvement in short game happens typically in skill. And then you have swing, okay? So swing is everything you see with the technique. So we're not saying start with the technique, and I think if you watch, if you watch all the stuff in short game that plays out in the world of golf instruction right now, which is way more than I feel like it should be It's like the discussion is around short game right now. It's always about swing

Rob 17:32

Seemingly, yeah

Eric 17:33

pretty much. I mean, there's a little skill component. Uh, they don't even

Rob 17:36

No, they don't. Yeah

Eric 17:39

They don't describe it in that sense. It's always about the technique of the swing, And then they argue back and forth. But point is, we're gonna say start with strategy, all the things you choose to, do before you and produce your skills. in so doing, do you wanna take it through, like,

Rob 17:58

I think so, yeah.

Eric 17:59

level two,

Rob 18:00

Yeah, we can absolutely do it pretty quickly. So level one,

Eric 18:03

Let's

Rob 18:03

level one, again, looking at, um, stopping the ball on the green A lot of the strategy is centered around how do I get my dispersion as tight as possible so I can just get as much of my dispersion on the green as I possibly can? And the way to do that oftentimes is to give yourself more margin for error in the, skill of arc location. So basically, where is the bottom of your swing located in space? And then how can you get it such that you are not being penalized as much when you make those errors in arc location? Well, loft and sort of the, the size of the swing are two big ones. Typically, the less loft you have, the more margin for error you typically do have in, arc height specifically, um, to be able to hit a functional shot. And then typically, as we see with level one golfers, if the size of the swing isn't as big, typically we do s- tend to see a little bit more predictability with the arc location,, for level one golfers specifically. Now that's... It gets into a little bit of a rabbit hole,, because I do not want people to take away from this, "Oh, wait a minute. If that's the case, that means in my full swing, if I make a shorter swing, I'll be more consistent in my arc location." No, not the case. That's not what we're saying at all. What we're saying here is, for these shots where you can give yourself that margin for error basically by putting it with either a putter, you can take a hybrid and essentially hit a putt. You can take a higher, like a, like a seven or a six iron and essentially hit a putt. If you can give yourself that shot option, it's not a bad idea to do so. And so really for a level one golfer, their number one thing they're looking at is like, "Hey, can I putt this golf ball onto the green?" And if they can, then even if it's not going toward the hole, oftentimes that's okay for a level one golfer. If they can't putt it, then they're gonna be hitting a, again, kind of a lower launching, lower spinning shot. Again, think about like taking like a nine iron or a pitching wedge and making a swing, but it's just a smaller swing. And if they can't hit the lower shot, then they're gonna hit a higher shot with, say, like a, a 54 or a 56-degree wedge. And again, they're just making a little bit bigger swing, just landing it where they need to, hopefully with enough loft to where this thing stops on the green. And so that kind of like that hierarchy of like, "Hey, if I can putt it, putt it. If I can't, let's chip it." Bas- basically the lower shot. And then if I can't hit the lower shot, can I pitch it and essentially hit the higher shot, would be kind of the strategy that we'd take a look at. And just picking directions, picking lines where you have your entire dispersion available. And we talk about it maybe on Substack or, Eric and I are actually talking about some, some potential new avenues for, for sharing some k- some of this type of content with you all. Making sure that you've got room for error a margin,, in not only the direction you're trying to start it, but then the, the location you're trying to stop it to where you can miss a little bit long, short, right or left, and the ball's still on the green.

Eric 21:03

Correct. So if you go back to, I can't remember which, uh, I'm sure it

Rob 21:07

Yeah

Eric 21:08

episode, about, could've been strategy maybe, 'cause club selection

Rob 21:13

Yes

Eric 21:14

right? And shot selection is a strategy. But we talked about and laid out why it's so much easier to use a flatter

Rob 21:23

Yeah

Eric 21:23

club. And I don't wanna go through it again, but just is. But I will tell you this story. I, I was on the course with a level one golfer today, she and I work really hard on her short game, but chipping, it's like she hits them all beautifully. Chipping is the thing that we work the most on. Just a sh- just a tough part of the game for her. And so we're on the, you know this hole, Robbie, it's a f- it's a par, three, number four at the

Rob 21:45

Yes

Eric 21:46

And so there's, it's over water, and it has this huge ridge in the middle of the green. It's almost like two

Rob 21:51

Mm-hmm.

Eric 21:51

green with this big ridge, and breaks massively right to left. And so she hits it to the right of the green, which is all closely mown, 'cause it, not as much over water is great strategy. And then it's 12 feet from the green, and then she's 40

Rob 22:04

Mm-hmm.

Eric 22:04

from the hole, across the green, break, it's straight downhill, over a ridge, breaking 14, 15 feet. Maybe even more than that, okay? So I walk over to her, and she walks, she's like getting out of the cart, and I said, should just use your, you should just use your hybrid." And she goes, "I've never done that. I've never hit that shot before." "Okay, well, I'll just show you." So we walk over, I said, "Just hit it like a putter. Grip down on it, lean a little, lean the handle a little forward, and just literally putt from here, just like you're putting." And she hit it to

Rob 22:34

Yeah.

Eric 22:35

feet from the hole., First time she ever tried it on a 10

Rob 22:38

Yeah

Eric 22:39

difficulty shot. Okay, so if I, if I give her the 54-degree club and give

Rob 22:44

Yeah

Eric 22:46

it gets on the green maybe two out of 10. So, and a shot that we've worked on. So it just shows you, there's much more

Rob 22:53

Yes

Eric 22:54

Okay, so we just covered strategy in level one. we're gonna move to skill in level one, and this is where Robbie and I would both say, I think 100% the most improvement comes

Rob 23:06

Yeah

Eric 23:08

Even though all the talk is about the technique and the swing. So skill level one, it g- it relates to strategy, like they're, intertwined

Rob 23:17

Yeah. So a lot of the strategy is taking away the, the penalizing nature of this particular skill of arc location, right? And there is a proximity element to that. When I say proximity, I'm talking about how far the swing is away from you, right? So let's say the club starts beside the golf ball, it swings back. Well, when it, when it comes through, swings into the golf ball, it might be the same distance it was when it started. It might be closer to you than what you'd prefer, therefore it hit the toe. It might be further away from you than you'd prefer, in which case it hit the heel. That's a thing, right? All level one, level two, level three golfers at some point or another in their career, they do need to work through a little bit of that skill. But the main one that we typically see is the arc height, and so basically just how high or low is the bottom of your swing arc in space. And that is the big one for level one golfers because oftentimes whether, you know, a lot of beginner golfers don't know where the bottom of the arc should be, right? Or where it could be to hit these shots,, functional. They think that, You know, I had a lesson just the other day that, she was topping it, and I asked her, what part of the club did she think the ball should hit, and she actually pointed at the leading edge So she thought the leading edge should have, should be the thing that's touching the golf ball, and she didn't even-- she didn't realize that the ball, should go up. So I just hit her a couple shots, and she was like, "Oh, interesting. The ball goes up, and I'm supposed to hit it off, you know, maybe three to four grooves up from the bottom." So that gave her the arc height and tension that she needed, and she thought that the, the club touching the ground was not supposed to happen at all. Right. So, we'd say, like, the bottom of the swing needs to at least touch some grass typically. It can definitely get lower than the grass, to some degree. The lower it gets, the closer to the target the bottom of the swing is also gonna need to be able to be, so that you're getting ball on the face, clean contact before you're getting the club into the, into the ground, right? So, there's a, there's some margin for error there. Typically, there's a half, about a half an inch, we'll get it dysfunctional on either side. So if relative to, hey, just say brushing the grass in terms of the arc height, if you're a half an inch high, that's dysfunctional. Half an inch low of that, that's dysfunctional. So you have basically a full inch, which is not much, and that's the, that's really the, the big issue with this skill is because it objectively has the least margin for error of those other skills in short game. And so a lot of, a lot of that is just building an awareness of it. A lot of times, you know, this is-- gets into a little bit of swing stuff, but golfers literally can't feel the club head swinging. And so if I ask them, "Hey, can you change where the bottom of the swing is located from a height perspective?" You know, they look at me like I got three heads 'cause they don't feel the club head in swing. Like th-th-they're so riddled with tension and/or, because tension and grip pressure are not the same. We'll get into that. But, or they've got so much grip pressure that they literally can't feel the club head. And so it's building a awareness of that, being able to adapt it, basically changing your intention, for it, and then calibrating for this specific shot 'cause every shot on the golf course is a little bit different. Ball's always in a little different location. Being able to predict from a feel perspective where the bottom of the swing's gonna be. It's definitely not a thought. It's not something that you're saying in words or can really describe how you're doing. It's a skill by definition because it is a perception. It's a feel. It's a very micro, micro, micro thing, that we need to develop awareness of.

Eric 27:03

So in the golf intervention short game model, we would say that arc height location is such a big deal level one A, we're still just developing that skill. These are golfers that are developing skill. B, we're gonna change trajectories, we're doing it mostly by

Rob 27:25

Correct.

Eric 27:25

clubs,

Rob 27:26

exclusively.

Eric 27:27

that, that almost exclusively. So then in that sense, we're managing the loft of the club, the loft of the face in that way by just managing, you know, or just

Rob 27:39

Correct. Yep

Eric 27:41

As we move on to other levels, that'll change. So we say, the three orders of skill are basically locating the swing arc, like Robbie just said. two is controlling the basically the face to path. In short game, it's mainly

Rob 27:55

Yeah

Eric 27:56

The open and close of the face matters, but it's mostly the loft, so that's the

Rob 27:59

Yep. Yep

Eric 28:01

And then the third is the

Rob 28:03

Mm-hmm. All

Eric 28:05

like how

Rob 28:05

speed, right? Yeah

Eric 28:06

into it. And I would contend that speed that we're swinging that club head and therefore flowing through to the distance control develops because the other skills are in line, right? We're not starting with distance control if we're hitting it. When you're trying to improve, write this down. If you're not making good contact, don't

Rob 28:28

Nothing else really matters, no

Eric 28:31

You- nothing else matters. So if you say, "Well, I'm making bad contact and the trajectory's all over the place, and I don't control the distance," you don't have three problems, you have one problem, which is contact, and you gotta get in there and figure out how to locate that arc to make better contact. Once you do, the face and the distance, the energy piece, they start to get very, very intuitive. But until the contact is right, none of it matters. just doesn't matter. so does that... Do you think that carries through... Does that discussion carry through the le- rest of

Rob 29:07

Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Absolutely. It's gonna be a contact thing

Eric 29:12

So as we, as we talk about swing, I kind of feel like part of me wants to save all the swing discussion to the end

Rob 29:20

I'm fine with that. We can do that.

Eric 29:22

For level one, two, and three, 'cause

Rob 29:23

Yeah, let's do that

Eric 29:24

there. Okay, think about this. our... I wouldn't say this is our method. I'm not- we don't have a method, but, but this is how we explain it to students that

Rob 29:34

Mm-hmm.

Eric 29:34

see us. This is how we coach coaches to coach. This is the story, is that the technique piece is not step

Rob 29:43

Yeah, definitely.

Eric 29:45

the swing piece, I should say, right?

Rob 29:46

Yes

Eric 29:47

see. It's the other stuff. And so most of everything you see on social media with short game instruction focuses around the swing technique. Okay? So what we're saying is forget about it. You could actually probably use a lot of swing techniques. If you do the other stuff right, it's gonna be okay. Right? You don't have to overstress it. There are definitely swing things you can get wrong and screw it all up

Rob 30:10

They're a couple, yeah.

Eric 30:12

Just being blunt, there's a few things. Okay, so we're gonna hold off that till later. So level two golfer, if I'm a level two golfer and I'm aware of what I need to work on, I've been tracking my proximities. I've got some, yeah, I've got some greens in regulation that I'm... or not greens in regulation, but some disruptors in there that I'm- I gotta figure out or whatever. But I gotta hit the ball closer to the hole more often. Now I start back

Rob 30:35

Mm-hmm.

Eric 30:36

Into the piece that I need to figure out, which is the strategy, right? So how does it change now as a level two golfer strategizing to improve

Rob 30:44

So as opposed to kind of working from the, the ball forward toward the green in the sense of like, "Hey, I've gotta make clean contact. My number one most predictable way to do that is a putt, so let me figure out a way to putt this, and if not, chip it, and if not, pitch it." Because that is starting, again, this, this moving from beginner, you know, to intermediate to advanced, it is not like, oh, I'm, I'm gonna get to level two and then I take this drastic step and then I'm, I'm there for... It's a, it's a smooth curve. It's an improvement curve that happens over a long period of time. So, um, w- I like to, y- if you, if you listen to the podcast at all, a lot of times I will say early level one, end of level one, early level two, end of level two, early level three, end of level three because you're trying to paint this picture of like the progression, right? So a lot of early level two looks very similar to level one, I'm gonna be honest. They just do it a bit better. And what I would tell you is that really once you get to, you know, comfortably in level two and you're looking into getting to the middle and to the end of level two, that's when proximity, again, P12 is gonna be your big thing. So as opposed to starting from the ball and working out, you start at the hole and say, "Hey, do I have room? Does my dispersion have room in the sense that if I try to stop this golf ball on the hole, does my entire dispersion still fit on the green?" And if it does, then you're trying to figure out, okay, well, for, for again, for an early level two golfer, you gotta think about this. What is essentially the, the least invasive way to get there, right? And as you work closer from the hole back, right, well, trying to hit a 60-degree pitch that lands three feet short of the hole is not the, is, is not gonna be the least invasive way the ball gets there. It's not gonna be the, highest margin for error way the ball gets there. So you're gonna continue to work back towards the golfer and as you work back, you're really just trying to ask yourself like, "Well, hey, where can I land the golf ball?" And if it-- If you get all the way back to the golf ball and you're like, "Hey, I could really land this thing anywhere," then it's likely probably gonna be a, a putt from a, from a shot outcome. From a, a shot type or a shot option standpoint, you could probably putt it. A lot of times you are still kind of going from a very similar process, but because you're working from the hole, your options are gonna start to dwindle. In level one, there are rare situations where there's not an ability to putt the golf ball on the green. You gotta get the, your approach shot ending up into some poor places t- before that really s- doesn't become an option. Whereas because level two you're starting at the hole, you're gonna have fewer options available to putt it and that's gonna be like, all right, as you continue to work your, dispersion towards you or closer to you, you'll get to a point to where you can't land the ball there. Well, guess what? If you can't land the ball there to get it on the green Or if you get close to the hole, then you probably can't putt it through there either, right? So then the option's gonna be like, "Hey, what is the shot required, to, to carry that area and have it stop near the hole?" And depending on where the hole is, like if you're- if the hole is in the back of the green, it's likely that that area that you picked, where you need to land it, is gonna be kind of a lower shot, which is gonna be your, your same chip shot that you've been using through level one, right? And if the pin's front of the green and you're kinda short-sided, then it's very likely that it's gonna be a similar to the pitch shot or the higher shot or basically the wedge, the higher lofted wedge shot, like the 56 or the 54 or the 60 degree that you were still using in level one. All right? So the shots are kinda similar on entry level two. It's just the priority starts more around like, "Hey, where's my 12-foot circle? Is my 12 foot or my kinda my proximity, do I have room on the h- around the hole to be able to stop?" And there are some times where, like, you just don't have room, where you have to change your target in terms of where the ball's trying to stop and, and oftentimes, again, if you're right up next to the green, the hole's gonna be your target. There are times where you're gonna be 39, 40 yards from the green, and because of the size of your dispersion, you're not gonna be able to aim directly at the flag. So understanding that I think is huge. But you're really building in your shot, um, choice based off of, again, trying to get that 12-foot proximity as opposed to, for level one, is clean contact and getting the golf ball on the green. And then as you work to the end of level two, you start-- or sorry, the middle to end of level two,, that's when things like changing trajectory more through, technique and skill as opposed to just simple club changes started to become a little bit more of a thing. But it's a very similar process. You're still starting at the hole and working back close to you as f- as close to you as you can get until you get to a point to where you can't land the ball there, and then you're gonna, again, give yourself margin for error. You're not gonna land it a foot beyond where that area is. You're gonna make- hold your dispersion up and make sure that your entire landing area is also like, hey, you could land it inside your dispersion long, inside to your dispersion short, right or left, and still have the ball end up on the green based off of your intended landing area.

Eric 36:16

And this player is getting better with more loft on these shots. You know, they c- they can play, you know, they can play, not that they should, like you're still going through your strategy, but having the ability to, to control the swing, have enough skill to hit it

Rob 36:35

Yeah.

Eric 36:36

with more loft

Rob 36:37

Mm-hmm.

Eric 36:37

right? Without the bigger misses. And that's what's carrying them through as they're developing that short game into level three, which gets to be, gets to be a little bit, um, better looking. So strategy, skill now, so like that's kind

Rob 36:52

Yes.

Eric 36:52

kind of what we're

Rob 36:54

Mm-hmm

Eric 36:55

um, next in this discussion is like, It still starts with

Rob 37:01

Mm-hmm.

Eric 37:02

location because of what have we just said is I need to be able to

Rob 37:05

Yeah.

Eric 37:06

That's

Rob 37:07

Yeah

Eric 37:08

And if I don't locate the arc, hit those really

Rob 37:11

Yes.

Eric 37:13

with the more loft and the more swing. So we were saying before, if I add loft, that's great., I then have to add more speed to

Rob 37:20

Yeah

Eric 37:21

too at the same time. So that more speed is gonna require a bigger swing, which is more management of the arc again. So like it-- you're just putting these pieces back in, and the more, the more complex

Rob 37:31

Mm-hmm.

Eric 37:32

the more skill I

Rob 37:33

Right. Yeah

Eric 37:35

Essentially. And so that starts to carry through all the next levels,

Rob 37:39

Absolutely

Eric 37:40

right? That's the, that's kinda st- starts to be the story, right? So in skill, what else would you

Rob 37:46

Yeah. So that's, that's where, again, the arc location's number one, from a height and then a proximity standpoint. I would say early level two, it's, it's still gonna be, like you said, a lot of kind of that intuitive, development of speed management. Because oftentimes, you know, to get it within 12 feet, it's not gonna be as much of a lateral error, like right to left in terms of a, like the face being pointed to the right or face being pointed to the left or just misreading it, like from a, from a direction standpoint in terms of where you're aiming. It's not gonna stop within 12 feet because of the distance dispersion still. I wanna say like if you look at the shape of the dispersion, that'll tell you a lot about the level of golfer. If the, if the dispersion is longer... S- sorry, if the dispersion size is bigger long to short than it is from right to left, you're probably looking at like a level one, entry level two golfer, right? And a lot of that size of the dispersion is due to contact. I don't wanna glaze over that, but a lot of that is speed management. So learning to manage, hey, for this pitch shot versus this chip shot versus this putt, what's the speed that I'm delivering to this? And then once you get to like end of level two, early level three, it starts to almost become like a perf- almost like a perfect circle. And then once you get past into level three into level four, then the dispersion's actually gonna start to get wider right to left than it is for long to short because their contact is very predictable, their speed management is very predictable. For them, it's gonna be a little bit of reading the, the green in terms of where it's landing. I'm kinda g- get going on a rant, getting ahead of myself. But again, from, from a skill standpoint, it's gonna be arc location and it's gonna be speed for the most part. You're not getting into crazy launch spin management stuff until you get into level three, into level four. Yep

Eric 39:42

Totally agree, and again, I s- I just feel like the distance control is pretty natural at that point. If you're doing the other things I was I said, before we got on air, I said, "How common is it for someone to come to you and be like, 'Man, I'm just really struggling with my distance control, my short game.'" You're like, "Okay, let's watch some." And they are just making beautiful

Rob 40:07

Just landing it. Yeah.

Eric 40:09

And they just like, "I just am not

Rob 40:10

Yeah.

Eric 40:11

well."

Rob 40:11

No, that doesn't really happen.

Eric 40:13

think I've

Rob 40:13

No

Eric 40:14

it. I, I've been teaching golf for 25 years. So point being, it's a flow through. So that's a ca- We just mentioned that in the other level, but I

Rob 40:23

Yeah,

Eric 40:23

reiterating, that's the, that's the story. Okay. So are we

Rob 40:27

I think we're ready

Eric 40:27

three? Yeah. And level Like we said before, level three and level four is a lot of the same story, right? It's just, like, four

Rob 40:35

They just do it better. Yeah

Eric 40:36

Yeah. Like, yeah, they're just,

Rob 40:40

Yeah

Eric 40:40

good.

Rob 40:41

Yeah.

Eric 40:42

really good.

Rob 40:43

So strategy is gonna be, similar to level two in the sense that you're starting at the hole and working backwards in terms of like, hey, where, where can the ball stop? I would still want to make sure that your dis- entire dispersion's on the green, number one. But because the dispersion size for these level three and level four golfers is so tight, it's like almost never are you not trying to l- stop the ball basically on the hole, especially inside 40 yards, unless the pin is cut somewhere crazy. So from there, a level three, level four golfer is gonna have a very, very, very stock wedge shot that they are gonna rely on very predictably. It's gonna launch anywhere from 30 to 27, somewhere in that range, 27 to 32. It's gonna have a, a ample amount of spin, and it's gonna be very much their stock shot they're gonna use most of the time because they have a very predictable ball speed, number one. So they, they understand the ball speed coming off the club is gonna be very consistent, whereas when you're going from a putt, the ball's coming off really fast. Chip, ball's coming off slower, but still pretty fast. When then with the wedge shot, the ball's coming off much slower, which again, is needed because you're trying to balance this arc location skill, and there's a decent amount of speed management skill needed to, account for the fact that the ball's coming off different speeds off of those clubs. But really for a level three golfer, they're trying to get as little, of the, of the green reading skill influencing the shot as possible, because they understand, "Hey, I gotta stop this ball within six feet." Right? Six feet is their goal. So when you think about like how much tighter the distance predictability and the right to left now actually starts to become a thing, like having to land this ball on the green and, and have it roll out 30 feet and trying to read that becomes kind of a, a nightmare for them. So they realize that, hey, if I can really predict this ball speed at the v- pretty tight windows, and I can land the ball somewhat close-ish to the hole to where I know it's gonna take a couple bounces and stop relatively soon, now they're not aiming that far away from the hole, and they, they still will. Certainly, they'll play break, and they'll still play to the high side, that's for sure. But it doesn't become this huge labor-intensive thing where they're reading it like a putt as you would a putt, right? So they're figuring out like, "Hey, can I stop this thing on the hole?" Yes. And then they're gonna work it back towards them like a level two golfer does with the intent of figuring out like, "Hey, where does my stock shot need to land to stop this thing on the hole?" Right? And they're gonna be taking into account the lie, the slope, and the wind, and then modifying how far they're gonna carry the golf ball to accommodate that. There's also situations where based off the lie, the slope, and the wind, they will modify the launch and the spin, which is basically the face-to-path skill, right? Which is also coupled to the speed being different to, 'cause sometimes their stock shot won't stop the ball on, within six feet. Like, based off of where they are, if they hit their stock shot with this lie and the slope and this wind, they have no chance for the ball to stop within six feet. So they will change the launch, they'll change the spin, they'll change the speed rel- to, to, to give themselves the best chance of stopping the ball within six feet in this current scenario with this lie, this slope, and this wind. And that's where reading the lie and how the ball's gonna come out, reading the slope, how the ball's sitting on and landing on is gonna affect things, and then reading the wind is also gonna affect things as well. And they're making a very specific choice about the shot that they're gonna play to get the ball within six feet. And so again, they're, they're kind of, they understand their stock very, very, very well, and they're making these adjustments off of their stock, oftentimes with setup, by the way, it's not always an in-swing thing, and with skill, to adapt to the environment

Eric 44:51

Mm-hmm. And I would say it's fair that I wanna, I wanna try to s- summarize one thing you said that I thought was really good. It's like, if you picture A level one sort of learning golfer, and then talk about a level three or four strategy. It, it can't work, And this is where people really struggle in their short game. The step is not, if I'm struggling as a level one golfer, the step is not level three or four

Rob 45:25

Right

Eric 45:26

meaning taking higher lofted clubs, shots that, fly closer to the hole. Yet I

Rob 45:34

All the time

Eric 45:35

daily. People don't chip. I think, I, I, I don't think I'm going out on a limb here to say when you see a general... Like, if you were to go to a, to a practice green, a busy practice green, which you probably have at Birdwood, where people are practicing their short game, and you watch the shots around the green, they're not

Rob 45:54

They're not putting and chipping.

Eric 45:55

pitching everything, and they're trying to modify with all this loft. When you give someone like that a short game lesson, it, literally blows their mind to

Rob 46:05

Yeah

Eric 46:05

the ball. literally blows their mind. And so when you pattern out what it takes to improve in the way that we're doing it, this is what the context is that really is helpful, right? And so you're describing this level three or four short game we see on TV, and no, if you're shooting in the 90s, that is not your short game. This is not gonna be your short game. If you're a beginner golfer, you don't need to learn a low-spinning sizzler with a s- with an open face 60 degree. Forget about it. I don't care how good your, quote-unquote, swing is, you haven't, you haven't developed the skill of arc location. You're still gonna screw

Rob 46:45

Yep

Eric 46:46

up at a way too high percentage. That doesn't mean you'll never develop it. You definitely can, but you've gotta work, you know, you've gotta work it through, right? You've gotta work it through this steps

Rob 46:57

Absolutely

Eric 46:57

about. And so when we talk about skill in this level, you have to be able to manage. Obviously, you're managing arc location because you're almost never missing, right? Almost. I mean, there's gonna be conditions and stuff,

Rob 47:13

Oh, for sure. Yeah

Eric 47:15

point, point being like your ability to control that arc for the most part under good, right, mindset does, but we didn't talk about this, but sometimes we get a little tight, we get a little whatever.

Rob 47:25

Yeah, that'll be in the swing stuff. Yeah

Eric 47:28

yeah,, so point being like managing that ability under all conditions, yeah, so we'll struggle with that a little bit, but likely you can play those shots. And so that is under control, essentially. Can I train it to be better? Yeah, I'm always trying to work

Rob 47:42

Yeah

Eric 47:42

right? But the story actually comes in the next one, which is really that what we, what we talked about with the face angle. Like, am I able to control the attack angle relative to the vertical

Rob 47:57

Mm-hmm. Right

Eric 47:58

to produce the right amount of launch and spin? Which you talked about the window, you're trying to hit it through the launch window. And if you can do that, you can hit a shot that is very controllable. It just takes a lot of skill.

Rob 48:12

For sure.

Eric 48:12

That's the story. It

Rob 48:13

Absolutely. And then I, I always have level two golfers, like the technique that I see level three golfers use with that, it's like nothing special. It's a, it's a pretty narrow stance width, the ball very centered in the stance, maybe slightly forward. They're playing it with a 58. They've got the face slightly open. They're just making a golf swing, right? And it's come, it's coming out lowie. Look how lowie. Wow, you can edit that out or not. That can be a hashtag. They're coming out lowish,

Eric 48:44

Low-ish

Rob 48:46

with, with enough spin. But the, the dispersion of arc locations, the dispersion of, spin loft, which is again the vertical aspect of face to path, their dispersion of speed, club head speed makes that a very advantageous shot because it, you know, there's no real shot that they can't access with that usually. I mean, it's gotta be something crazy outlier in terms of being sh- super short sided on a down slope or something. And then also they're taking away the green reading skill a little bit with that too. So it's got some advantages. So I don't discourage level two and even sometimes level one golfers of just like, again, it's, it's gonna be the same kinda shot. It's gonna be a high- higher lofted club with a very vanilla setup, and it's just a swing. It's just not gonna be the first shot that they're using oftentimes. Like they're gonna start, for level one golfers, you're kinda starting with a putt. For level two golfers, oftentimes you're still gonna be putting. You're going to be doing a lot more chipping, and then when the pin's front and you can't roll it up there, you're gonna be hitting higher shots for sure as a level two golfer. And then as a level three golfer, that's when it's like, no, it probably behooves you to get, again, for, for getting it inside of six feet and that, that, that goal, I can't understate how huge that is going from a 12-foot ring to a six-foot ring. Your direction matters a ton because as this ball is landing and rolling, there's a good chance that your face angle at impact is way inside that six-foot dispersion, but the ball is gonna end up outside of six feet if you don't read the green, if you don't start the ball on the high side. Whereas it's, it's a little more rare that it's outside of a 12-foot circle, to be honest. It's just not gonna happen quite as much

Eric 50:30

100%. So as we go to level four, it's that, it's just really good at that, right? And the prediction, I think

Rob 50:39

It's the lie slope prediction stuff. Yeah.

Eric 50:42

Yeah, that, that's where they ramp up. So we have mentioned this on the other shows. We haven't really said it today much, but the prediction of how the ball launches out of different lies

Rob 50:55

They're so good at predicting that, yeah

Eric 50:57

does really, really, really well. And, the more complex the lie gets or the more complex the shot is, their ability to predict it just

Rob 51:07

Yeah. And here's the deal. Like, we, we have rules of thumb for predicting lies. I've got some processes that I go through with players to help them get better at predicting how the ball's gonna come out. But the honest truth is that there's not a single level three or four golfer on the place- on the face of planet Earth that hasn't played an absolute obscene amount of golf. So much of reading lies and reading slopes around the green is history, memories,, and is calling upon experience of just being out there and messing up a lot. And so you, like, to the, to get to level three and four, you've got to have the mindset that is open to error feedback because that is what you're gonna need to get to that, to those levels of p- of being able to predict the lie and slope. If you're looking at every possible outcome that could happen as a threat of like, "Oh, this shot's either gonna tell me I'm a good golfer or a bad golfer", I'm sorry, you can probably get to level three, but the odds are not great, and it's n- the odds that you sustain that are not gonna be great. So having a growth mindset to what you're bringing is so vastly important because it is the thing that's gonna allow you to develop that. Of so much of those lie and slope prediction skills needed to get to, you know, level four, is gonna be, is gonna be a lot of that.

Eric 52:34

So hopefully that discussion takes you through, determining what you need to work on in a way, right? We didn't talk about swing. We're gonna save that. What we need to say is, we're gonna insert a little bit into swing here, is there's a lot about technique. I mean, you can go back and read... I remember reading so much about the short game. This is back, you know, 'cause I'm old, this is before YouTube and all this stuff, so it's like before the internet, this is what we did. We read books,

Rob 53:06

Yeah

Eric 53:06

And so there, you know, there's a lot of techniques that can work. You can become skillful doing a lot of things

Rob 53:14

Yeah

Eric 53:15

technique standpoint. You know, Dave Pell's swing technique was very different than Stan Utley's in some ways, which was very different than, the James Sieckmann techniques in some ways, which is different than, very different than the whatever's going on now with the Short Game Chef and the Joe Mayo tech- all this stuff, right? And you can develop skill doing a lot of things if you believe in it and you know how to train

Rob 53:40

Amen.

Eric 53:41

to do,

Rob 53:41

Yep

Eric 53:42

So you can, on your own, read a book, you know? If I was gonna suggest you a book, I don't know. Probably be Stan Utley, Art of the Short Game, if you wanted to read one. That's the one I like the best. Who knows, right? Maybe it is a, maybe it is a, a trusted person online that you can train with. James, Rydeard would

Rob 53:58

Yep

Eric 53:59

one, right? So, there's some great short game coaches in the world that aren't most famous ones. But what I would say is, if you feel like The next step should probably be practice. What do I need to do in my practice, right? I've determined who I am, I've determined what it takes to get me to the next level or what's holding me back in my current level. So if I'm gonna improve it, I probably need to have a practice strategy for that, right? And in that moment, it's either like I need to s- I need to take a lesson potentially, right? Maybe. That's a really good time to take a lesson. Or you say, "All right. I think I know what I need to work on., I'm a level, I'm an N-level two, and you just told me I need to get better with a, with a, with some lofted club, controlling my launch and getting that, that contact to improve based on where I am. So how do I practice that?" Right? So I kinda feel like this next step is I need to, I need to figure out a practice plan, right? And so plan level one, level two, level three, level four

Rob 55:07

Oh my gosh, yeah

Eric 55:09

I mean, wildly different. you can almost give them the spectrum, like if I'm, if I'm someone that's trying to develop any skill at all in my short game versus someone that's just trying to hone in the highest level of predictability in the tour player end. There's just different ways we practice that. Is that ri-

Rob 55:31

No, 100%, yeah. Definitely

Eric 55:33

So give me a visual. You've got a new golfer, I'm just starting to keep score. I'm shooting 120, which happens to us every day, 'cause I'm not, I'm not picking on people. This is like kind of what happens. You start keeping score, you're probably shooting a score like that if you're, if you're counting all your shots. And 100% aware that I'm just missing the green a

Rob 55:56

Mm-hmm.

Eric 55:56

I'm

Rob 55:56

For sure

Eric 55:57

know... So what does practice look like for that person? Like, what is

Rob 56:00

Yep.

Eric 56:01

do you see it?

Rob 56:01

So I'm a big fan of, of doing, again, it's-- you're gonna be checking three boxes, so strategy, skill, and swing, right? So the, the strategy piece a lot of times when you're assessing it looks a lot like playing. So I would do as a level one golfer, level two, level three, level four, w- use the metrics that we shared with you tonight and come up with an assessment, right, that looks and feels kinda like playing golf. Well, what do I mean by that? Well, you're gonna be playing in the order that you're gonna be hitting shots when you go actually play, right? So you're not gonna sit there and hit 30 pitch shots in a row. That makes no sense. No one ever does that. That's not real, okay? That doesn't feel like playing golf. So if we're gonna assess strategy stuff and/or skill and swing, 'cause really if we're doing an assessment first, I'm a big fan of that because it kinda, it gives you a little bit of an insight into kinda where you're at, but it can also just be a good exercise. It's literally play is practice when it comes to a lot of the strategy stuff. Do it in the order that you're gonna play. So hit a pitch shot and then putt it out. Even if you're not worried about putting, just do it. Just literally make it look and feel as real as you possibly can. And as a level one golfer, just track on the green, off the green. Level two golfer, inside, outside 12 feet. Three or four golfer, track inside six feet. And work yourself around the green, and depending on the level of golfer, you're gonna modify these two variables. Um, you're gonna modify the spacing, which is the amount of time in between shots, and you're gonna be modifying the variability, so basically how complex are the different shots themselves. Are you giving yourself... Let's say you're doing six holes. Well, for a level one golfer, I might just give them, like, five in the fairway, kinda similar lies, and then maybe one in the rough or two in the rough, with a kind of a similar slope, right? And just make the, make the baseline, assessment pretty vanilla, right? Whereas for a level four golfer, if I'm doing assessment It's gonna be plenty of time between shots. We're gonna go to different greens. I'm gonna give them maybe two shots in the fairway, two shots in the rough, a shot in the bunker, and then one out of, you know, a, a lie that they don't typically see. I'm gonna be asking them to hit out of different grasses. Again, 'cause you're, you're judging off, off of six feet, you're gonna have some sort of consequence. Like, you know, you're just gonna ramp up the intensity of that, with, with spacing and variability for that assessment. All right. So again, I like six holes. You could do nine holes around a green. But basically rule of thumb is the higher level you are, the more time between shots you need, the more variability,, that you need to be able to, to actually make it look and feel real or, or, relevant or, or, representative. Thank you. That's the word I'm looking for. Representative enough. So there's a, there's a element of assessment. It kind of looks and feels like play. And then depending on your-- the individual golfer, and what your coach has found out, there's gonna be a percentage that is in skill and then a percentage that is in swing, right? What are you really working on? Swing stuff can be worked on relatively out of context. Like you don't necessarily always need a golf ball. You don't need a club. You don't need, really, you don't need strike or skill feedback necessarily to tell you that you're making the swing that you wanna make or not. And hopefully your coach, is helping give you feedback that doesn't directly have to deal with the, the skills to tell you if you're doing the swing stuff that you wanna do or not. I'm a big fan of differential training, so pick the area of the swing that you're working on. Do sets of three shots. One where the first, the first one is the desired pattern, the second one is the opposite or the, the, the movement that you're working away from, and then have the third one be what you're l- going for again, right? And then take some time in between. Add some variability. Again, when we're talking about practice, it's always spacing and variability is kind of what you're trying to weave into this kind of stuff. So it's gonna be a percentage of swing. Really, the, the further the swing is away from being functional, basically like Eric said, I think in the swing episode, is if you feel like you're just walking this tightrope and like your swing is giving you no margin for error, percentage-wise, you're probably gonna be heavier on swing, right? But if you go and see Eric or if you see myself and we say, "You know what? Your swing's pretty functional. We're gonna give you a couple things to watch out for, but it's not the number one priority," then as a percentage of your time, much lower on swing But every golfer, and I'm gonna make sure that I emphasize this, every golfer in every practice session that you're ever gonna have has to have an element of skill training in it, period, point blank. It's brushing your teeth. It's literally, it's just a workout for your brain with a golf club in your hand. It is calibrating. It is a constant calibration of where is the club in space, and in the relevant skills are arc location, face to path, and speed. And again, you can do differential training in the sense of like, "Hey, I'm gonna make errors on purpose to try to gain reference points for what I want." There's also variable training as well. So basically, that's where, again, very similar to golf, you're gonna be giving yourself, different ball locations to stress the arc location skill. So change the height of the golf ball and like in a-- If I'm teaching in a bay, I'm teeing a golf ball up, I'm putting them up on like a block in it so that they're elevated and the, and the ball's below their feet. I'm putting the ball too far away from them, putting the ball too close to them. I'm changing where the ball is. I'm trying to get them to basically hit the center of the face, but do it in different ways to modify and kind of adapt that skill of arc location. It's gonna be a little bit of face to path, probably level one golfer, hardly any. Level two, maybe a little bit. If you're into level two, level three is gonna be a, a decent bit more of, of changing launch and spin. And then, speed management is also gonna be a, a fundamental part for level one all the way through level four, testing speed management. Again, with differential training, you can do three shots too far, too short, somewhere in between. I do ladder drills where I say, "Hey, can you get five on the green, each one further than the previous?" I do a bunch of different... Just, just training that awareness of, of club head speed and the amount of energy you're bringing to it, again, it's another fundamental skill. It just needs to be a part of what you're doing.

Eric 1:02:33

Yeah. So I think picturing that, scaling your practice based on the proximities that we talked about I'm working on skill versus dif- which is different than working on swing. You wanna create your feedback loops based on those things, right? And hopefully you're taking lessons from instructors that do understand and can communicate that to

Rob 1:02:58

Mm-hmm

Eric 1:02:59

And I would say, if you visualize what... Go, kinda go back and listen to that again. There was a lot in that, 'cause, like, throwing in how do every level of golfer practice their short game, give it to me in three minutes, is, a, it's a lot, right? We could do a whole series on that. But what I was just trying to say there is, like, you have to realize what you're trying to practice and just a general

Rob 1:03:19

Yep.

Eric 1:03:19

to practice it.

Rob 1:03:20

Checking those three boxes

Eric 1:03:22

is huge for golfers, 'cause golfers don't practice well typically,

Rob 1:03:26

No

Eric 1:03:26

do themselves a huge favor just by

Rob 1:03:29

No, they, they don't have it-- They're, generally they don't have awareness of, the metrics that they're looking at. They don't simulate play really. They'll, they'll tell you they are. They're not really doing it. They're not assessing their swing independent of the skill. So basically they, they, they're telling you they're working on swing, but they're really only judging skill. Like, "Hey, did the ball do what I want? If so, yay, my swing was good. Did the ball did, do what I want? No. Boo, my swing was bad." Like, that's typically what most people are doing.

Eric 1:03:57

good swing,

Rob 1:03:58

Correct.

Eric 1:03:58

Yeah

Rob 1:03:59

And then most golfers are completely unaware of their perception, perception reality gap, and the fact that skills are dependent on closing that gap between perception and reality

Eric 1:04:09

And if you can't practice in that manner, it's very hard to transfer anything

Rob 1:04:13

100%.

Eric 1:04:13

to the golf course. That's the point of practicing that way. And if you go out, you know, there is some room, I think, in level one to, to stand in a spot and hit some shots in a row, not tremendous amounts, but a little more block style as I'm just learning to put my hands on the club and try to

Rob 1:04:30

Yep.

Eric 1:04:30

like in a

Rob 1:04:31

Yep

Eric 1:04:31

skill standpoint. But at the end of the day, because basically just contact is what we're trying to do to get that thing going in level one. But at the end of the day, your target is so big, and as the target starts to narrow, you've gotta be able to stand up on one shot and be able to execute. And if you're standing on the short game area hitting, always hitting 10 balls from the same spot just over and over mindlessly, your ability to judge swing one gets to be very difficult, right? And so being able to simulate that and then the har- you know, as you get, you know, from level one to level two to level three, like you're adding what you said, complexity. You're adding, maybe even some consequence, right? So like I had some golfers this week, I'm like, "Hey, if you can't, you know, lag putt from 40 feet, you know, pick some targets. If you can't get four out of s- four out of five," you know, I was giving them these targets, "then, you know, you've gotta do like 10 burpees in your workout, 10 extra bur- Like just giving

Rob 1:05:28

Yeah.

Eric 1:05:28

s- It was just not to do that, but like

Rob 1:05:30

Mm-hmm

Eric 1:05:31

thinking, "What?" I was like, "No, no, no, actually just do the drill again,"

Rob 1:05:34

The others?

Eric 1:05:34

And just make sure that you do it over and over again so that you can,

Rob 1:05:38

there's

Eric 1:05:39

you know, accomplish

Rob 1:05:40

there's actually some cool research on, on consequences. It shows that just literally having something matters and, like, will help transfer.

Eric 1:05:50

makes you focused,

Rob 1:05:51

Literally just have, you know, and, you know, what I try to do with, with kind of what I've learned with Dr. Pryor is really have a, a conversation with a golfer. It's like, "Hey, what are, what are the thoughts that would keep you from doing this the way you wanna do it? Like, hitting the shot the way you wanna hit it?" And like, "Oh, well, it's typically what other people are thinking of me." And so guess what consequences I'm gonna include in their practice. Like, "Hey, when you go and practice, I'd love for you to practice with someone else." Or if not, just make sure when you're doing your assessment, like, hey, you're playing six holes around a green, just make sure every shot that you hit, you are hitting it in a location where it's quite easy for someone to be watching you, right? So one of my pet peeves is, like, when I see competitive golfers, they, they try to create this, incredibly safe environment when they are training for play. And like, I get it if you're working on swing, if you're working on skill, 100%. Go to a quiet place. Go to somewhere, where no one else can see you, and you have the, y- this time to yourself for skill and swing training, 100%. I'm a huge fan of that. But when you are actually training for play, and you're developing some of that strategy stuff in the context of how you're gonna play when you go, when you go-- you've gotta make it real enough from, from a, consequences aspect as well. So the, if, if you can have a conversation with yourself and ask you, like, "Hey, what are the things in a round of golf that typically would distract me, pull my focus away from the thing that I'm doing while I'm doing it?" You can actually build in some really sorta, like, real consequences in your practice and, and improve the quality of the, of the transfer to when you go play.

Eric 1:07:33

It's a

Rob 1:07:34

Yeah

Eric 1:07:34

deal. So there it is. We said we might have a

Rob 1:07:37

We, we weren't.

Eric 1:07:38

I think it's gonna be the longest one we've put out in, like, 40 episodes. But in summation, short game is such a large part of golf. think it, personally, it's the most fun part of golf for me, and Every golfer can improve at it for the most part, right? I mean, you get to some point, like you get some really good short games. But for the most part, you gotta keep it sharp even whenever it's like you said, they gotta brush the

Rob 1:08:06

Yeah.

Eric 1:08:07

with that, otherwise you'll lose a little bit of it. So, the action steps are pretty straightforward, right? Know who you are, know what the next level is, understand what you need to work on from that, like we just said, strategy, skill, and swing standpoint. Practice it effectively. If you need some swing help, probably take a lesson from a really good coach, someone that you trust. Maybe don't listen to every random thing that you see on social media, because there are definitely some conflicting ideas out there. So you just have to pick a coach and stick with it, right? Stick with what that is. Learn how to produce the shots that you're trying to produce through that lens and,, set your practice up the way we just described it. And I think that everyone can get better at short game or at least maintain where they are and, not overcomplicate this thing too much. So hopefully you, the listener, got a little something out of that. I know I always do, and I look forward to our next discussion, whatever that may be, on the Golf Intervention. Anything else you'd like to add at the end here, Rob?

Rob 1:09:11

There we go

Eric 1:09:14

Thank you so much for tuning in. This has been a long episode, and I thank you for sticking with us if you have to this point. Hopefully that helps your short game, and we will catch you the next time on the Golf Intervention Podcast.

Rob 1:09:28

Cheers