Master Your Short Game Technique- The Keys to Great Chipping and Pitching for Every Level Golfer

Eric 0:04

And welcome back to the Golf Intervention Podcast. My name is Eric Layton. I'm here with my co-host, Rob Fails. We are two golf instructors who have set out on a journey of podcasting to help you, the listener, play better golf. I hope we're doing it. What do you think, Rob Fails?

Rob 0:22

I hope so. We're, we're professional golf instructors and very much amateur podcasters, so

Eric 0:28

Yeah, we try

Rob 0:30

we do. We have a growth mindset about it

Eric 0:33

we put the effort in. On today's episode, we're gonna be discussing, in the third part of our series on short game, we're gonna discuss swing. So we've already discussed strategy for short game. We've discussed skill for short game. If you have not listened to those episodes, I would highly suggest going back and listening to them, although you don't have to. So they don't have to be in the order, this is the way the Golf Intervention looks at things, and it helps keep it clear for the listener and for the student and for the teacher, right? And today, we take on the swing, meaning, I guess, the techniques of the short game

Rob 1:13

The macro. Yeah

Eric 1:15

The macro. And this macro, like we said, swing is everything you can see, essentially,

Rob 1:22

Mm-hmm

Eric 1:23

Skill is what you can't see that really makes the shot through the swing, and then you've got strategy, which is your choices that you're making. So that's just kinda how we do it. And we say that from least invasive to most invasive if you're trying to improve. You're gonna go strategy, skill, and swing. And I would also contend that for those seekers of knowledge, which if you are sitting down listening to a podcast about golf techniques, you, you listener, are a seeker of knowledge, you have to be a little bit careful about what you, hear and see in the social media worlds about these techniques. And so today what we're gonna try to do is just give you simple insight into the short game swings to help guide you towards improved short game the very next time that you play, hopefully, if you need it. So are you fired up about

Rob 2:16

I'm fired up. Fired up. A little under the weather, but we're, uh, we're pushing through. We're here. The show must go on, right?

Eric 2:23

Truth be told, five minutes ago, we didn't know if we were gonna be on, and Rob's like, "Nope, nope, we're going. I'm excited about it, and we wanna get it out there for the listener." actually, I've been looking forward to this episode a lot, because I think that we, we steer away from swing a lot because, should. There's a lot in swing that is, very unique to a person and very hard to, communicate the great things about. You start getting a lot of preference involved, a lot of people like swing models, and then you're talking about,, copying people and all this stuff, positions of the swing, using those P system numbers that everybody loves so much. but point being, In short game though, I feel like you can kind of coalesce golfer to golfer around some techniques that most everybody can do. Whereas the full swing techniques are always going to look and should look and probably being most effective, having uniqueness to them, to the individual because of anatomy and other things, right? Just the way the body's put together and, and all that. But in the short game, it can kind of be a little more similar, right? And talking about those techniques today I think will be very, very fun. So I think we'll still go through the lens of level one golfer, level

Rob 3:38

For sure.

Eric 3:38

level three

Rob 3:39

Yep

Eric 3:39

and what's important about that. We've covered these topics in the past. I don't, I don't want to say that we haven't. We're now on episode fifty-eight or nine,

Rob 3:47

No, and yeah

Eric 3:48

this, maybe fifty-nine. so that's okay. We're covering them again. We're covering a little bit different

Rob 3:54

Yeah, our teaching evolves over time, right? So like the same episode a year ago, we're not gonna be saying the exact same stuff anyway, nor should we, right?

Eric 4:02

As the great philosopher Rob Fails once said, you never step in the same river twice,

Rob 4:08

did I say

Eric 4:08

when you... Y- I think so. At

Rob 4:12

that?

Eric 4:13

you...

Rob 4:14

At one point I probably said that, yeah.

Eric 4:16

it was probably Confucius, but I'm gonna say

Rob 4:17

Yes

Eric 4:17

said it. Point being, because of how we teach and how we learn and what we believe, the teaching framework evolves. It just does. so the more you learn, we're in the age of information, and the more you learn, the more it evolves. I don't think my short game instructional technique preferences have changed much over the years, but understanding of ball flight around short game probably has because we're using we didn't use 25 years ago when I was learning to play and teach the game. So it has changed in that sense, how we communicate it, words that we use. And, today we're gonna try to get into that and try to demystify maybe a little bit about the short game because there is a lot of discussion about it. there's some camps in the short game, and we're not really gonna address that. We're gonna just tell you what we think is relevant and hopefully you'll be able to take away the points that'll help you play better, in the short area this year. So Rob Fails, unless there's anything you wanna, add here at the beginning, we should get into level one golfer.

Rob 5:27

it

Eric 5:27

thinking about level one, zero to one golfer? I'm beginning, I've never played, to have played and have the skill of maybe shooting around bogey golf. That's a big, big range of golfers, but there's some commonalities there, like we've said in the skill set, which you've heard in our other episodes. So let's talk about level one golfer in the short game area, 40 yards and in but

Rob 5:52

Yeah. So I think it'd be helpful to maybe start with what are the elements of swing that are, not specific to an individual golfer or an individual level of golfer. So when we talk about swing and coloring in the earlier comment about micro versus macro, the swing is, like Eric said, the stuff that you can see. So I can tell it's who it is from 300 yards away based off of their swing. But I can't tell where the ball hit the face, I can't tell where the face was pointed, I can't tell how fast the club was moving. Right? So all those three skills, like we said in our last episode, skill is what creates the ball flight and what the ball does. Right? The swing, and you've said this before, Eric, and I really like this, is more the vehicle through which you can develop skill. And so when we look at for the long game, right, the, the priorities of swing are, number one, to keep yourself safe, to not injure yourself. Number two, um, to be consistent, from a sp- specifically not from a geometry standpoint, when we talk about geometry, it's really the positions of the club in space. Or, or the body in space. Where is the club in this position? If you took a freeze frame of different points in the swing, oftentimes people can color in the geometry as they're looking at those different positions, right? Whereas what we typically look at is the energy and time elements of swing, and those and how they're organized, really the consistency of them allows us to develop skill long term. And then for long game, there's an efficiency element to this in terms of like, hey, how much bang for your buck are you getting? In short game, it's less about creating speed with, with, submaximal effort or work. It's more about predicting a specific speed, right? And so for a, for a level one, level two, level three golfer, that's the lens that I'm looking th- looking at through, when we're talking about swing. A, I think short game motions are typically pretty low levels of force, so it's very rare that we're looking at injury stuff for short game. So for short game, we can pretty much throw that out. We're looking mainly at, A, what is the consistency of the rhythm, the freedom, and the tempo pieces, which we're gonna talk about in this episode for sure. And then w- what is their overall strategy for managing speed? And I think the, the skill of speed and swing, they intertwine probably the most of the three skills, because it has to do with how you're creating energy, right, and how you're managing time within that swing. So, laying out the priorities I think first would be, uh, would be a good place to start for sure.

Eric 8:36

Yeah, and I think that, when you reference some of the knowledge that people are seeking in the, in the short game or in the, just in golf in general, the discussion around, rhythm mainly is what, kind of what you're discussing there. There is no discussion. I mean, effectively

Rob 8:54

Yeah

Eric 8:55

around rhythm, and we sit here and say, "I think it's the main driver of repeatability and

Rob 9:00

Yeah. Yep

Eric 9:01

I mean, we could really mess the geometry up and have that be a problem or get the tension wrong., There's things that we can do, right? We'll talk about that a little bit, but consistency of strike gonna be so much bent towards

Rob 9:15

Yeah, for sure

Eric 9:16

can produce, right? And, and that's, it's amazing. Again, I think that the discussion never centers around that on the online discussions, but again, because you can't... I mean, you can see it, but it's not the, it's not

Rob 9:30

Yes.

Eric 9:31

of what

Rob 9:32

Yeah

Eric 9:32

when you're looking at freeze-frame positions again, right?

Rob 9:35

The masses of golfers aren't trained or not aware to be looking at that. Even though I do think, when people go to PGA Tour and LPGA Tour events, they often come back and say, "Man, like they all, they hit the ball so far, but it doesn't look like they're working as hard as they possible-" Like, a lot of people make that observation, but for some reason it just gets, tossed aside. Like, why is it that our solution to that is always, um, technique from a positional geometric standpoint? It, it, doesn't make sense to me.

Eric 10:07

Well, I was thinking about, about my lessons this week, and I'm gonna guess at least five lessons with putting and short game, we talked a lot

Rob 10:19

Yeah

Eric 10:21

We're really working on it. Sometimes we use tour tempo, a lot of times we don't. We're just trying to find that,

Rob 10:26

Yep.

Eric 10:27

maybe a word or a

Rob 10:28

Yes.

Eric 10:29

people kind of...

Rob 10:29

Yeah

Eric 10:30

And sometimes it's just to latch onto the feel

Rob 10:32

Yeah.

Eric 10:32

it, so

Rob 10:33

So let's, let's get into some of these definitions. All right, so we'll- right, we've given you the, the priority list, number one, of, of what's important in swing. Now let's talk about from a energy, time, and geometry standpoint. We've touched on geometry for sure, but really talking about energy and time. Um, really the, the three main words that I use in my coaching a lot are gonna be rhythm and tempo, and then freedom, right? There's, there's really- there's three words that get thrown around a lot, uh, when it comes to golf swing that I think, um, yeah, like the masses of golf instruction probably doesn't have great definitions for. So, I'll take a swing at it. So the rhythm is more the pattern. All right, so if we were to just talk about the club time, right? So how much time is the club traveling in the backswing direction relative to the entire downswing and follow through direction? Rhythm would be like the ratio of time, right? So is the backswing taking three syllables and the entire downswing and follow through taking one? While that would be a rhythm that I don't prefer, what we prioritize is the consistency of it, which we'll get into when we talk about freedom here in a minute. But I see so many golfers, they are describing rhythm, but they are saying the word tempo, and it drives me nuts. Like, "Oh, I'm working on my tempo." I, I saw, um, a reel today where, a guy was like swinging a rope and said, "Oh, working on my tempo." I'm like, no, like you're working on the f- on the rhythm, right? Because the rhythm is again, the general pattern. Um, if you were to picture like an orange whip or like a, like a lag shot or, or clubs like that, if you were to swing that club back and forth and have like a very symmetrical kinda smooth wave in the shaft, that would be a different rhythm than if you went back like slow motion and then ripped it hard in transition and had this huge bending in the club. All right? So a- again, a lot of like when people say, "Oh, it's smooth", well, that's- you're not talking about tempo there, you're talking about rhythm. It's the ratio of time. And I actually talk about rhythm a lot when it comes to, uh, physiologically, like when we walk There's a rhythm to how my feet strike the ground, my legs push, and my ribcage changes shape, right? So understanding that, hey, you can drive your swing not from steering it with the arms, but from using more of a ground up into kind of the ribcage, strategy for creating energy, and you can create a rhythm to that, right? So again, pattern. Rhythm equals pattern. Just kind of like nail that into your brain there, right? Tempo is more the amount of time, right? So I can have-- And again, I prefer like the, the time of the backswing to be relatively similar to the time of the entire downswing and follow through. That's definitely a rhythm that I prefer because again, we'll, we'll talk about the implications on is it swinging freely or not? Um, and it has to do with that. But you could have a very consistent rhythm with a one-syllable backswing, right? So time it takes to say swing and the entire downswing and follow through saying swing, right? That could be very, very consistent. Now that's a, that's a very, like much lower amount of time. So people might call that a quicker or like a faster tempo. It's not, it's just less time, right? It has very little to do with clubhead speed, meaning like there's no necessarily correlation aside from when you get too much time. Like you, you get up to four syllables, five syllables, then it gets very difficult to create the clubhead speed that you need to be able to play. But there's no like, hey, three syllables is more clubhead speed than two syllables, or two syllables is more clubhead speed than one syllable. That's not necessarily the case because there's a length and a, and a, and a range of motion of swing that we're talking about there as well. So tempo would be the difference between a three-syllable swing, right? Virginia, Virginia. So the entire backswing, Virginia, entire downswing and follow through, Virginia, versus like a one-syllable like swing, swing. Right? Then finally, we have freedom, which is really the level of tension in the overall system itself. So basically, is the club's momentum stretching the body and moving the body, or are your muscles driving the movement of the club from start to finish? Um, and I pref- I certainly teach and prefer more like, hey, you, you get the club going in that first little bit, right? And then you more allow the momentum of the club to move you back and forth for the most part. Again, that's, um, maybe a little esoteric in terms of the, the verbiage there, but you're allowing the momentum of the club to swing your arms, to stretch your rib cage, and then you're allowing the momentum of the club to swing and rotate freely into the golf ball and into your finish. So there's one part of the swing that is, hey, I'm applying force, and then there's another part of the swing, most of the swing is momentum. Um, and I think golfers and coaches, honestly, that, that gets lost a lot in translation. So those are kinda the main definitions, rhythm, tempo, and freedom that I typically use on a, on a day-to-day basis. Um, and we'll get more into that, but just wanted to, to set some definitions for the listener.

Eric 15:48

Yeah, and those apply, they do apply to the short game as well. So when you talk about rhythm and tempo, if you're two syllables all the way to the top of the backswing a driver and that's your rhythm, right?

Rob 16:02

That's your temp.

Eric 16:03

two

Rob 16:03

Oh, yeah, yeah, match it, matching, yeah

Eric 16:04

Okay, and then I'm hitting a 40-yard pitch shot taking it hip high with a sand wedge, and it's also two syllables.

Rob 16:11

Yes

Eric 16:13

So you can visualize the difference in tempo it would take to create the same pattern of rhythm, right? So like that's the, that's the way I, I visualize it. And... There was a great video, I remember Jerry Hogg showing us this video, I believe, unless I'm making this up in my mind at Methodist, of a split screen of, of Jack Nicklaus hitting a bunch of shots they were like drivers and wedges and they were all on a VHS tape split together and he was starting and stopping the swings basically all at the same time. So that was like the, this, this great visualization

Rob 16:46

Yeah

Eric 16:46

right? And, and that applies to putting too. So as we get into the short game, um, when we focus on those things, it's because they matter a lot.

Rob 16:59

Yeah

Eric 16:59

And, and the foundation of playing good golf, if you go back and listen to some of our earlier episodes, and I know we'll, we'll kind of harp on this again, we're, we're wrapping up this series and we'll get into some new episodes, but- Really laying the foundation of having a mindset of an ability to, accept the outcome and manage the expectations and be enjoying the game is gonna allow for some of this to happen, right? It's gonna be really the foundation of allowing a lot of this to happen. And when we get wrapped up in technique, this is the problem, I've seen it for 25 years teaching golf now, in the short game, they get so wrapped up in what they believe, this is their intention, like what I believe I'm supposed to do and what I'm trying to do, from a mechanical standpoint, that they just lose track of all the other stuff, and the tension builds up and they lose the feeling of what you're just talking about, which is feeling the club swing in their hand and creating a good pattern or rhythm and having freedom. And it all goes away, even for extremely good players at times.

Rob 18:11

Ebbs and flows.

Eric 18:12

worse for extremely good players at

Rob 18:14

Yeah.

Eric 18:15

where it just disappears and they're unable to hit those shots, right? And so when we harp on short game a technique standpoint, from our vantage point, it's like we're coaches, man, and we coach everybody that plays

Rob 18:30

Yeah

Eric 18:30

from

Rob 18:31

No

Eric 18:31

beginner to adult to tour player to, high level college golfer, and we're on that journey helping them, coaching them along, right? And this is the things that we see. It is not, it is not meant to be a, uh, a catchy 30-second, video of a beautiful little chipping stroke or

Rob 18:52

Yeah.

Eric 18:53

This is not that. And so these are the things that can really foundationally set you up for great short game, but it starts right in your mind

Rob 19:01

No doubt

Eric 19:03

I think it really, really does. And so as we go into level one golfer, a lot of these golfers have technique yet. They don't even think about technique. I tell the story a lot about me playing the first round of golf I ever played. I was a high school kid who played baseball, so I could hit the ball, and I got 40 yards from the green and I and I'm standing in front of this green and I'm going like, have no earthly idea how to hit it short." Never even thought about it, because all I ever did was went to the driving range. And so you start there with like, do I just take a slow swing? Do I like what do I do to get all the way back? I have no technique, right? And then I'm developing that technique through level one, using some things that really help us make some good contact, right? Because we talked about the skill and so talk about the driver of that level one short game technique.

Rob 19:55

Yeah, so back to our skill episode last week, level one golfers, especially in the short game, it's all about managing the arc location, right? And so how c- how can we build in... And we always say, swing can help give you more margin for error. It can help bias the skills differently, but it does not create the shot, meaning And to your point about golfers g- getting in, deep, dark rabbit holes, I think it's born from the idea that the swing geometry and the technique is what creates the shot outcome, and it's not the case. All right? It's the skill, but oftentimes we can certainly help the skills in the, in terms of the margin of error of them, um, by biasing them in certain ways with the, with the swing technique. So a perfect one we're gonna look at is how c- how can I build in some margin for error on, um, arc height? That's one for level one golfers. Oftentimes bottom swing's way too high, bottom swing's way too low. How can I build in some margin for error with that? And the big one that I typically look at, again, aside from just literally training the arc,, height skill, is where is the bottom of the swing from a toward the target versus away from the target standpoint. All right? So that's gonna be number one. And then also, what's the delivered loft? All right? 'Cause it's very rare for a level one golfer. They're gonna need a ton of loft for the shot just to get the ball on the green. So when I'm organizing their grip, and again, like I, I typic- I'm very, I'm a big stickler on getting the grip such that it's not gonna bias the club face massively, massively open. I do not want the, I do not want the leading edge way up off the ground for level one golfers in general unless, if I can help it. So a big influence to that is the grip. All right? So I try to get the grip in the hand such that it's a, neutral club face bias. Um, if it's a little bit on the closed side, I don't really mind it. It's okay for a level one golfer, 100%.

Eric 21:55

Right

Rob 21:56

And really harping on the, the relationship between the pressure in the grip versus the tension levels in the shoulders and the arms. Golfers confuse how tightly they're squeezing it with the level of tension in their jaw, their neck, their arms, right, n- and the whole system in general. So someone out there said,, hold it like a baby bird, and they probably had really strong hands, right? And, and/or they were talking about grip pressure when really they were trying to, interpret f-, freedom from a tension standpoint. So my big thing is, like, hey, if I went, if I went in there and grabbed a golfer's golf club and tried to pull it out of their hands, I wanna be able to easily move the club in their arms, but I do not want the club moving in the hands. All right? So th- it's that kind of, that, that combination of pressure relative to tension, and then just making sure the club face isn't massively twisted open or isn't anywhere even slightly on the open bias. I think for level one golfers, oftentimes it's a very similar grip to their long game. Now, they can grip down, they can stand closer to it, all that that good stuff. Depending on what the golfer needs. But in general, the grip is gonna be very similar, in terms of what I teach for level one golfers. In general just 'cause like for many level one golfers, if I can keep stuff the same for them and not having to change it a ton, then I'm probably gonna hedge, hedge to that, that end of the spectrum for sure

Eric 23:19

Yeah. And I would say also, building upon that is from a ball position standpoint, I try to get them, especially at level one, just to play it in the middle of their stance,

Rob 23:31

agree. Yeah.

Eric 23:32

With their feet closer

Rob 23:33

Yes

Eric 23:34

of the biggest no-nos in short game is playing the ball too far back in your stance, and I would... I'll die on the hill of this one, right? Which is, it just sets you up. It- in theory, you would think you'd ca- just catch the, catch the ball cleaner that way on the arc, but the problem is it really changes a lot of the geometry from a shoulder standpoint, how your weight is shifting, where the club wants to be

Rob 24:02

Yeah.

Eric 24:02

on the backswing,

Rob 24:03

Oh, yeah

Eric 24:04

the leading edge into a tricky position. I'm trying not get to- to get too technical, but,

Rob 24:08

Not yet

Eric 24:08

just play these shots out of the middle of our stance. Whether we're trying to play it high, whether we're trying to play it

Rob 24:12

Just change the club.

Eric 24:13

whether we're trying to play it low, we're gonna change the club for that and change the, change the swing a little bit. But, at the end of the day, let's keep it really simple. Our feet are pretty close together, gonna be inside of hip width, right? Ball's gonna be middle of the stance, and most of the time, I would say most- all the time, we're leaning

Rob 24:30

Yeah, so I was gonna ask a little bit of left lean

Eric 24:33

under our foot onto our lead side. Right? So for a right-handed golfer, lead side is left. Left-handed golfer, lead side is right. So we're leaning. No, it's not 60%. Who, who knows what it is.

Rob 24:43

Well, it's not

Eric 24:44

give people feels, but I mean, it's like they're not measuring it anyway.

Rob 24:49

mass thing. It's not pressure, right? I can, uh And that's one of my big things is like for a short game technique, when we're building in some rhythm and tempo to this that cr- can create energy and therefore then momentum and freedom, if I don't have the pressure changing in my feet at least a little bit, then it becomes very difficult to create rhythm, from a, not only from a club standpoint, but it's hard to drive the rib cage with any sort of rhythm. And then when I don't have rhythm in my ribs, then I'm gonna have trouble getting energy out to the golf club. And then if I, if I'm not getting energy out into the golf club, then the only way I really have to move it is to steer with my arms. And as soon as I get into steering it with my arms, tension levels increase, and then the overall repeatability, of the rhythm and the tempo pieces, do come down, right? So

Eric 25:38

Let's talk about that for a second because I think you're you and I are saying the same thing If you if you play the ball too far back in your stance and try to lean left push my pressure left ball is back in my stance my upper body mass right which is what you just said drops

Rob 25:55

Yeah it gets tipped away

Eric 25:56

the problem We want the mass set forward so we can actually use the pressure under our feet to create the

Rob 26:02

Yeah.

Eric 26:02

right Isn't that what you just

Rob 26:04

Yeah, We,

Eric 26:04

we

Rob 26:05

I need it, I need the mass, neutral-ish enough, and it can be a little bit left to bias the bottom of the arc on the target side of the ball. But I need to understand there's a difference in where my body is in space from a,, leaning right or left movement standpoint versus the pressure change in my feet. If I were to just step in place, you can feel pressure changing in your feet from your right foot to your left foot. That should happen in shots where it's greater than, a putt. In putting, I don't have much of a pressure shift. You can say, like, hey, if I'm gonna hit a, like a nine iron or an eight iron and essentially make a putting swing with those clubs from off the green, you don't have to have a, a pressure shift for those re- really either, because it's the same swing as what you would do with a putter. But as soon as I need to create some momentum, I need the club head to swing up at least kinda level with the handle, if not the club head going slightly above the handle in the backswing. That's when I need a l- some amount of pressure changing into my feet. I need the ribcage changing shape. We need the arms and the club swinging freely

Eric 27:03

Yeah, so you're rotating your

Rob 27:05

Yeah.

Eric 27:05

point,

Rob 27:06

Yep

Eric 27:07

So outside of, which we've said many times, if you're a level one golfer, you're putting as often as you can putt.

Rob 27:13

Yes

Eric 27:13

You're gonna do the putting technique with flatter face clubs, like up to a nine or eight iron, as often as you can. Maybe seven, depends on your set, but seven iron, maybe even a hybrid putting technique. I will also shout out the Ping Chipper.

Rob 27:27

Nice

Eric 27:27

you're someone that does not carry a ton of clubs, it makes no sense not to have a Ping Chipper. I don't know if you've used these with your students. You got your Ping hat on

Rob 27:37

I do. I have the, uh, the bunker club, but I've, I've

Eric 27:40

Up

Rob 27:40

around a little bit with the chipper. It's cool

Eric 27:42

Here's what I would say about the chipper. It's built like a putter, so for the folks that cannot, in their mind, stop their wrist too much and kind of like, I'm trying to use non-technical terms,

Rob 27:54

Staring it.

Eric 27:55

their wrists a

Rob 27:56

No, staring it.

Eric 27:57

a lot of that trying to lift the ball off

Rob 27:58

No

Eric 27:59

move, and no matter what they try to do, they can't stop it. It's a subconscious thing a lot of times, right? You put the chipper in their hand and it feels like their putter. It's very heavy, actually, very heavy. So get the steel shafted one. Don't go with these sissy graphite ones. And I'm gonna tell you

Rob 28:16

Is that the label on the shaft? Does it say Sissy Graphite? That's actually the name of it, right?

Eric 28:21

graphite. I'm talking about heavy, because the weight actually keeps them fr- it gives them momentum,

Rob 28:26

yeah. I'm with you

Eric 28:27

I have momentum in the club, and they many, many times stop the little, they, they can actually

Rob 28:33

cool

Eric 28:34

And I think it, because it just looks like a

Rob 28:36

Yeah.

Eric 28:36

It's

Rob 28:37

And the lie angle and everything is kind of like a... So it gets it probably more up in the palm and everything.

Eric 28:40

Correct. And so they stop doing the

Rob 28:43

Yeah, that's cool

Eric 28:43

pretty cool. but point being, now when we have to hit the ball higher or as we're building our skill set able to play a more diverse, toolbox of shots, we gotta do the shots that w- that Robbie was just describing there, which is like, I've gotta feel some movement.

Rob 29:00

Yeah

Eric 29:01

I've gotta And I can't feel the movement I'm standing over the ball expecting it's gonna be terrible, everybody's judging me, hoping nobody's watching me, squeezing the club like I'm trying to get wine out of the end of the You know, squeezing a grape

Rob 29:17

Nice. I like that.

Eric 29:18

of the

Rob 29:19

Yeah

Eric 29:20

And having the ball back in my sta- Like, all these things just lend to this choppy-looking

Rob 29:26

agree

Eric 29:27

And we just can't, we just can't do it like that. It's gotta be a little mini swing. And to your point, we gotta set it up mindset first, and then get it in the grip the right way, get your body set, and start to feel a little bit of a motion that helps you, really control the ball,

Rob 29:41

Totally. And what makes it, what gives us the most predictability and consistency of, of the golf swing is not being the most in control of the golf swing, right? So I I do this, uh, demonstration where I hold the club with two fingers, and I just allow the, the club to swing back and forth just holding it with two fingers. And I'll get golfers to ask "Hey, what's more consistent, right, this?" Or, and then I'll, I'll grab it and I'll tr- I'll try to, I'll try to create the same rhythm in the club with my hand, but invariably I can't do it. It's, it never looks the same under tension as it feels when I'm free. And it's like, okay, well what's more consistent? And it's obviously the one that's free. It's like, okay, well which one's more in control? Obviously the one where I'm grabbing it, right? So it's like control is not really what we're after when it comes to swing. It's consistency, it's predictability, it's not,, steering it and being in control of it the whole time.

Eric 30:39

So we've gone through in the other episodes, the strategy piece, w- you know, what we're trying to accomplish with these shots, all the choices that we're trying to make, and I, I made the point that I think short game has the most strategy of any of the pieces of the, the golf course, 'cause we're changing trajectories and landing points and how much we want it to spin or roll out, that kind of thing. And then the skill part we defined well And so the swing part is like, we've gotten to this place, and can I just produce it?

Rob 31:10

Yeah

Eric 31:10

That's what it's all about. This is the vessel of production. You can be skillful with a lot of different things, okay? You can learn to do things. It's... So don't get caught up in the minutiae of, oh, it has to be a shallow arc depth or a steep arc depth or even that, your there's some right and wrong answers in there, I will say, but, your interpretation of what

Rob 31:33

Yeah

Eric 31:33

as a golfer

Rob 31:34

Yeah.

Eric 31:35

hard

Rob 31:35

It is for sure

Eric 31:37

And so I would say don't stress out about that, not under the supervision of a very good coach. Just try to do what we're saying. Mindset, get a good grip, take a good stance, find some rhythm, swing freely,

Rob 31:53

And train skill

Eric 31:54

get the low point forward and tr- you know, that's skill, right? And, uh, and then go from there, right? Have a good mindset, have a good strategy, and go forward. So anything else on level one, Rob?

Rob 32:07

I don't think so. No, I think

Eric 32:09

I don't think so either. We basically described, the general putt chip, which they're gonna try to do most

Rob 32:14

Yeah

Eric 32:14

or putt chip, and then, a little bit of a swing, which you can chip with

Rob 32:18

Yeah.

Eric 32:18

pitch with,

Rob 32:19

Yeah.

Eric 32:20

And to, just to define that a little bit clearer, is a low shot and pitching is a high shot. It's pretty straightforward, okay? You don't have to overthink it. And, and when you're looking at those shots, lot of times the club you're using is dictating that trajectory,

Rob 32:34

because a pitching wedge is re- especially nowadays is like rarely

Eric 32:38

chipping. You're not probably pitching with a chi- with a pitching

Rob 32:42

know. Yeah.

Eric 32:43

why you need a chipper, and it gets a lot more

Rob 32:45

Yes.

Eric 32:46

point. Um, so moving

Rob 32:49

Yeah

Eric 32:49

now, as we know from our previous episodes, our requirements from level one to level two move from, hey, can I just start trying to get the ball on the green almost all the time, have any big blunders, to now I have to start hitting some proximities, right? 'Cause there's like, I'm, I'm hitting more greens in regulation, and the greens I'm missing in regulation, I really need to be having extremely high percentage of the time on the green, and also hitting it inside certain distances, and more often, right? So I can give myself a chance to get it up and down a percentage of the time, right? So in that requirement, I'm gonna have to start really controlling things like trajectory, spin, and where the ball is landing on the green with some prediction of how it's gonna roll out. The skill set gets bigger, right? So the requirement of the swing isn't that different than what we just talked about, it's just the development of the skill through that vessel, right, Rob?

Rob 33:51

Yeah, 100% no. Like Dr. Bob Grober's research is very clear. Like when you go from, um, amateur golfers to teaching pros, and then from teaching pros to playing pros, the variability of the amount of swing time, which is the tempo, the variability in the rhythm, which would be the ratio of time, just gets tighter and tighter and tighter and tighter, right? So, you're not gonna hear us say really anything different as far as that goes. The swing is very similar to how you walk, right? You've got pressure shift in the feet. You've got a change of shape in the ribcage, and then you've got your arms and the club swinging freely. It's just less, and I think, like, that's an important thing to, to understand is that when I was talking earlier about... I'm going off a little bit off-topic here, but it's okay. Um, when I talked about, like, hey, there's part of the swing where you're creating force into the club, and then there's part of the swing where essentially the momentum of the club's pulling you. Well, a lot of that, like the club pulling you, is due to the amount of force you were able to apply into that golf club in the first part of the swing. And you might hear companies like, I think back in the day it was like, uh, Blast, I believe Um, talking a lot about-- and, like, it's in the Dr. Bob Grover research for sure. Just talking about how there's a f- a difference in rhythm from short game to long game when we talk about, the amount of time in the backswing relative to the amount of time to the ball. Right? So in, in long game, it's basically three to- three-ish to one. It's not exactly three to one, but it's three-ish to one, two and a half to three and a half to one in terms of the amount of time in the backswing relative to the amount of time to the ball. Then you have, in short game, it's more of like a two to one. Right? So what creates that difference, a lot of that is just due to how much the club's momentum is pulling you into the backswing. Because as the club pulls you and the momentum is kind of swinging your arms and pulling you up into the backswing, well, guess what you're actually doing? You're applying force in the downswing direction as the club is still moving back, and that's a lot of what amplifies the momentum of the, of the club swinging into impact is all of that time in the backswing that was spent actually slowing the backswing down via putting force in the other direction, in the downswing direction. It's not something that's intentional. It's due to swinging freely and creating enough energy in the club in that first part of the backswing, and in short game, you're just not creating as much energy in the club in the backswing, therefore, the club doesn't actually stretch you and swing you and move you. There's just less momentum, therefore, it's gonna have more of that pendulum-like, very symmetrical, like, size of backswing relative to size of, follow through. Whereas becau- in long game, because you have all that, amplification momentum, you're gonna see the, the finish is gonna be relatively a little bit bigger than the size of the backswing. And so I wanted to--

Eric 36:52

and

Rob 36:52

Yeah

Eric 36:53

So This is something that think, a little bit in that short game, tiff that goes on between the, between some of the top instructors. But Joe Mayo points out very clearly that your, the body mass is moving forward during the

Rob 37:09

Toward the target, yeah.

Eric 37:11

and

Rob 37:11

Yep. Yeah

Eric 37:12

that, right? And you can see it, and you watch the best chippers in the world and pitchers in the world, Tiger Woods being clearly one of them, and you can 100% see it. That's something you can see. Okay? You can see that. That's why we call it swing stuff. So it happens, right? This is what you're describing is happening, and so this to move with that energy and in that rhythm requires that,

Rob 37:39

The pressure change in your feet. Yeah

Eric 37:41

And as I've thought about this episode for a couple weeks now coming up on it, it just keeps going back to mindset for me.

Rob 37:48

Yeah

Eric 37:49

And it's, it's what I see all day long. It's like you go out and play with members and they're so I don't care, they're either very confident in their short game, either they're good at it or they're not good at it, they're very con- or it can be kind of a disaster in a lot of way- you know? Like, and like I said, the, the better the player is, sometimes the worse this can be, where it's just they don't chip often because they hit a lot of greens, and when they have to hit these short shots, it's, it's just not a mindset of, um, a

Rob 38:20

Yeah. Yeah

Eric 38:21

just not, they're not in that place, right? And so, that level of freedom in the

Rob 38:29

Yeah.

Eric 38:29

in my

Rob 38:29

Yeah. It's radical acceptance of, and self-given permission to perform freely and to play freely without a guarantee, right? So,, what confidence is, is not certainty about the future, right? You're actually...

Eric 38:42

No.

Rob 38:42

So I complet- I completely agree with you. Like, when I see tension ramp up, when I see lack of pressure change in the feet, lack of, relative motion in the ribcage, and they're just, like, steering it with the arms, they're just trying to make sure. They're just trying to guarantee. They're just trying to avoid the worst-case scenarios, which is my buddy judging me. Like, what does this mean for my score? People will blow the consequences out of proportion for, for shots like that. Um, and yeah, like to your point, like, so much of what can c- what can free people up and get them into that rhythm, and tempo consistency that we talk about is the, is the front-loaded acceptance stuff and bringing a, a growth mindset to it.

Eric 39:29

And so as we talk about moving into level

Rob 39:30

Yeah. Thank you.

Eric 39:32

y- the, uh, which we've already done, but I'm just

Rob 39:35

Yeah

Eric 39:36

that y- you said you went off on a tangent, but I think it was exactly appropriate because now we're starting to see in level two more of a swing. Like,

Rob 39:45

Yeah

Eric 39:45

to... In, in level one, it's more of a stroke. It's more of that, like, I'm just defaulting to this stroke, which is a very one-levered putting action, right? For me to get into level two and three and f- and elite status, like, I've gotta learn to swing the club,

Rob 40:00

Yep

Eric 40:00

right? Call it pitching, call it, low driving chip shot, whatever. Like, I've gotta start creating this

Rob 40:07

Yeah

Eric 40:08

that looks more of a swing. I'm using my wrists more, the forearms are coming into play, uh, my body rotation and pressure shifting and all these things, my posture, all this stuff plays a role at this point, and we have to be able to manage that. And so as we go into level two, is there something... Like, I know for me, I try to delineate in, with my students when I'm teaching them, I'm like, is a pitch shot," or the, at this level, "This is a pitch shot. This is a chip shot." I want 'em to, I want 'em to visualize it because I want them to be able to verbalize what they're trying to do. It has to have a picture attached to it for me, right? I'm trying to get 'em to get an external focus on what they're trying to create with the

Rob 40:51

for sure, yeah. I, I think it's in level two where you start needing that higher than stock shot, right? Because for a lot of these golfers, once you get to the mid to level two, into level two, right, you're trying to get the ball inside 12 feet as opposed to just getting it on the green. And like the putt, the, the chip are gonna be default lo- lower options, um, which can be great if the pin's middle or if the pin's back. But it's, again, you're not really caring about where the pin is anyway. For, for level one golfers, it's almost like, "Hey, we're gonna do what we do. Most of the time the pin's gonna be middle or back and we'll be in good shape. Some of the time the pin's gonna be front, and that's just poor luck." Um, whereas for level two golfers, I'm trying to access front, middle, and back pins. Like again, ess- essentially short-sighted shots, shots where I've got ample room on the green, and then shots where the pin's all the way in the back. So the high shot does come into play, and that's where Having an open-face option in terms of how you're doing that, there's a lot of different options. I can preset the face open at address. I can change my grip slightly. I can spin the face open going back. I can obviously play different clubs, but that's a little bit more of an entry level two option. I think it's like middle to end of level two, kind of what I'm talking more about here, where we start to get a little bit more one-dimensional in the club that we're using. Um, and because of that, as I start to have more of an open face, what does that do to the leading edge? Does it move it up or does it move it down? Moves it up, which means I need something for a lot of these shots. Either I've gotta manage the arc height really well and just choose that scenario when the lie accounts for it, but I need something to get the bottom of the swing ahead of the golf ball that doesn't involve closing the face to path and, and leaning the handle forward that way. And so to your point, Eric, and not to repeat ourselves here, but this is where in the backswing, that slight bit of mass movement towards the target becomes very beneficial because now you're allowing yourself to make impact with a more loft, more spin loft, right? While still getting that arc height, um, margin for error based off of having the handle a little bit leaning forward, a little bit, little bit leaning toward the target. And this is, again, I'm not setting it and holding anything with tension in my wrists and my forearms and my, uh... This thing is swinging freely with momentum. It's more of a movement in the backswing where, again, your upper body basically the top of your head is gonna just slightly tip toward the target. But so much of that, again, Eric, is due to that walking rhythm with the feet being close together and not having as much of a energy away from the target in the first part of the backswing. Because in, in long game, you're still moving toward the target. It just happens later. It doesn't happen as early. Well, why is that? Because I've spent a considerable more amount of work to get the club swinging and moving away from the target. So I have the away from the target movement, right? That momentum's gonna kick me up, and then I'm gonna have that left sort- not, not left, but toward the target movement that happens after I've gotten this thing going back. Whereas in short game, it's the same rhythm It's just less. I'm not giving a- as much energy going back. Therefore, when my-- when I create that same walking rhythm with my feet and my ribs, you're gonna see that, that movement toward the target be a bit more exaggerated and a bit more obvious in a short game. I don't know how intentional it really needs to be other than just training really good rhythm in the kind of like a walking-like rhythm, like I've said a couple times before, in terms of the pressure changing the feet, the stance width being pretty narrow, that relative motion in the ribcage. All of that stuff is gonna kinda help kick you toward the target, um, without it being super intentional. And this is stuff for a level two golfer. We don't expect you to take this information and go out and necessarily, like, try to put this into play. What, what we're outlining here is some concepts and really some motivation to go, um, see a very high-quality coach, high- highly qualified coach to help you with your short game with some of this stuff

Eric 45:04

Yeah. So I don't know if you wanna go on record with preferences, but I think the general, the general point that we try to make is That low, that low point being forward of the ball is just, it's

Rob 45:21

Yeah

Eric 45:21

right? Managing the arc height is

Rob 45:24

Yes

Eric 45:24

The attack angle is gonna be down pretty good because the point is forward. That's part of

Rob 45:31

Yeah

Eric 45:31

Um, so that's just... And I would say that I'm, never teach anyone to, to try to open the face on the backswing of a

Rob 45:42

Cool. Yeah.

Eric 45:42

Ne- never. I don't know if you

Rob 45:44

It's just an option. I've had some--

Eric 45:46

It's

Rob 45:46

I've had a small handful of people have success with it. It's definitely not my stock

Eric 45:52

Cor- I'm talking

Rob 45:53

Yes. Yeah

Eric 45:54

shortcut and preference. I don't do that, put it, do that way. I don't

Rob 45:57

Yeah.

Eric 45:58

So

Rob 45:59

Yeah, I,

Eric 45:59

there

Rob 46:00

I prefer just to preset the face open at setup.

Eric 46:04

Seems way

Rob 46:05

Yeah.

Eric 46:05

to do that, so let's go

Rob 46:07

Yeah.

Eric 46:08

Let's

Rob 46:08

for level two golfers.

Eric 46:10

of way

Rob 46:10

Yeah

Eric 46:11

I will say that, I don't like thin margins for error

Rob 46:14

Agreed

Eric 46:15

students because they're so tense all the time anyway. need a lot of margin

Rob 46:19

Yep

Eric 46:20

and if the low- the, I would say the l- now, there's gonna be dysfunction in this, so you can, you can overdo it, but if the low point is pretty significantly forward, it's gonna build in some margin for error for you. If the shaft handle, if the handle leads forward, and the low point is forward, y- y- and you can reasonably manage our

Rob 46:39

Yep

Eric 46:39

which most of us can, 'cause that's being done by setup

Rob 46:42

And the freedom and the rhythm consistency and how you're swinging.

Eric 46:45

correct, I'm saying that's what gets compromised, If nothing-- like, if there's something that under the gun gets compromised, it's gonna be

Rob 46:54

Yeah

Eric 46:54

and so I'm trying to build in as much margin as I

Rob 46:58

No doubt. Yeah

Eric 46:59

if you don't have the margin because you're not moving that lo- if the low point isn't far enough forward, bringing in hellacious, hellacious misses, and just what drives more and more tension, in my opinion. More and more discomfort and more and more distrust.

Rob 47:18

Yeah, depending on the mindset that they're bringing to that area, I would say like especially for folks who have-- who are bringing more of a, like a fixed mindset to these short game shots, absolutely. Like, you're gonna see, um, these outcomes that have a trickle-down effect on their psychology. Um, it's-- a-and it's more the way that they're perceiving the outcomes. It's not the outcomes themselves, but it's like the, their, their explanatory style. It's how they're, it's how they're explaining the outcomes. Um, but yeah, I would, I would, I would agree

Eric 47:50

But the point I would make, again, kinda dying on this hill, if the technique I provide for them or that they try to do leaves them very little margin between a good and bad shot, and maybe even so infinitesimal that they can't really sense their input to it changing and getting vastly different results, then their self-talk is never gonna be all

Rob 48:11

Yeah Yeah.

Eric 48:12

right? And so we've gotta be able to coach them up well. Coach them up. Get a good lesson. If you're struggling with the short game, find a good coach. If you don't know one, reach out to us and we will try to set you up with people that we know. We've done that for people before, and I mean it when I say that. DM our Instagram account, send us a message on Substack. People have emailed me, "Do you know a coach in this, this, that, or area?" And we, we've set them up. So we believe in coaching, obviously. We haven't said that much on this show recently, but we believe in it. would say that we've covered so much of the basis for a lot of this stuff, 'cause it, you look at level three and you go, "Well, yeah." I mean, it's, it's a lot of what we just talked about, done a lot sharper with a lot higher skill,

Rob 48:56

For sure

Eric 48:57

your point, coalescing probably around, a certain club and shot that we

Rob 49:04

Yeah.

Eric 49:05

a lot, right?

Rob 49:06

Totally. And I would say, like, the, the arc height variability now for level three and four golfers is getting quite a bit tighter, which opens up options for where the bottom swing can be. Plenty of level three golfers, plenty of level four golfers are gonna be h- able to, um, maybe not my preference, but able to, play shots with the bottom of the arc very close to the golf ball for specific situations, specific lies, specific slopes. Like, especially to hit higher, they're gonna be able to manage the height of the swing arc such that they can get the bottom of the arc at or just, like, a kind of around the golf ball and totally be able to manage that. Um, and so they do have more options. Um, but again, it's so much of it's because the energy and time management consistency just continues to get better. The arc location skill just gets so much tighter when, when the, when the swing, uh, rhythm, tempo, and freedom are, are well organized and, and consistent, for sure. So it gives them a lot more options as far as that goes. They're trying to get everything inside of six feet, basically. So they're gonna have quite a few, um, options around the green. Like, I've seen elite players have, like, slightly different grips. They'll, they'll change up their distance from the ball quite a bit, especially, to hit higher, they'll get further from it. Um, to hit lower, they'll get closer to it, stand the handle up. They will, they will definitely modify setup variables, um, to get the golf ball kinda doing what they need it to do. And they'll manage ball po- they'll, they'll change ball position a little bit too. Um, they'll move it up, they'll move it back a little bit. Um, there's definitely more variability in what they can do because of that swing stuff being so consistent.

Eric 50:50

and they'll adapt to the conditions,

Rob 50:52

Yeah, that's the strategy. Yeah. Yep

Eric 50:54

if you watch, and I know this is a strategy piece, but it does play into the swing

Rob 50:58

Appreciate it

Eric 50:59

You could actually hear them talk about this like, "Oh, we're chipping on grainy Bermuda this week," you know, "We're on zoysia this week," or, the rough at the US Open is, s- you know, this super long, thick whatever or, you know, it's Bermuda rough. You know, and they're, and they're always adapting like, "This is the way I'm gonna play this shot this week," right? So they're adapting a lot of times to the conditions, and then they're playing, they're swinging at it differently, right? Which leads to that different skill, but it's like they're d- they're making adaptations in, you know, like you were saying, how they- where they lean the handle, where the ball position is, like

Rob 51:35

I see t-

Eric 51:35

shape of

Rob 51:36

totally.

Eric 51:37

a

Rob 51:37

Oh my gosh, yeah. I see tempo changes too. Depending, like,

Eric 51:40

changes?

Rob 51:41

If, if it gets, like, kind of buried, I see them, uh, go less time oftentimes. And then if it's, like, sitting up, you know, deep fluffy stuff in the rough, I've seen them go way more time, and that swing gets much bigger in certain situations to hit it really high sometimes. Um, so again, yeah, the variability, um, in the tempo does go up, but the rhythm and freedom is more consistent from shot to shot for sure

Eric 52:09

It's a shame we don't get to see Jordan Spieth, playing in the,

Rob 52:12

Yeah.

Eric 52:13

like, feature groups much as he, as he used to be, 'cause I felt like that was a guy that could do things with a wedge that just were out of the

Rob 52:22

Yeah

Eric 52:22

His adaptability and just the things that he could hit, know, from different situations were just so cool. I think Jordan will get it back.

Rob 52:31

Mm-hmm.

Eric 52:32

I think Jordan's gonna bring it back. He's still very young. So anyway, um, so that kinda takes us to the short game technique. I think that in summation, I think Rob Fails did a very good job through importance of the swing, the concepts of the swing, like defining the pieces of it that matter outside of, just pretty positions

Rob 52:57

Yep

Eric 52:58

or theories. This isn't theories. This is just the science of it, and this is, what we've seen over teaching for a combined probably now, I don't know, what are we, 35

Rob 53:07

Yeah.

Eric 53:07

or more

Rob 53:08

Yeah

Eric 53:08

A lot, a lot of golf lessons, a lot of high-level golfers. And so, think about those things, the tension that you're feeling. Are you in a good mindset before you hit the shot? Are you picking the right shot to play? Which I know goes back to our, other episodes, but like just putting yourself in a position to, to your point, bend the pr- the favorability in your favor. And if your, if your short game is just razor edge towards like it could be good or it could be a disaster, then your technique isn't right in my opinion. I just I'm sorry, but you need to make an adjustment

Rob 53:41

Yeah. Yeah

Eric 53:42

And you can practice it all day, and you get y- you get yourself onto the first hole, and you've gotta go over the corner of a bunker into the Bermuda green, you know, with everybody watching you and $2 on the line. Are you gonna be able to produce that shot every time or most of the time, to your acceptable outcome? And if the answer is d- deep down you cannot, then you probably need to adjust your technique, and that's the stuff we're talking about today, right? be s- could be skill training, could be that too, but sometimes the technique is just n- the intention of the technique just isn't quite right, and so take a lesson and work on it. That's what I say. All right, Rob Fails, anything else you wanna add to the discussion

Rob 54:23

I don't think so. I think we got it.

Eric 54:24

Jordan... This was your Jordan flu game. Robbie is not feeling good, I'm just gonna tell you right now, and he, uh, he medicated and, uh, and

Rob 54:33

Heavily.

Eric 54:34

So I wanna, I wanna, I wanna shout out a couple of people. You'll like this story, Rob, just real quick end of the episode. I wanna say thank you to the listeners. You know, we do this just for, uh, the good of the game is kind of what we've always done it for. It's just a hobby for us, but I love hearing from people, and I heard a story, uh, from a member who, who flagged me down at the member guests and said, "Hey, I was playing golf in DC and I saw these people practicing, and they were just awful, and I walked over to them and said, 'You all need to listen to this podcast 'cause you

Rob 55:08

That's awesome

Eric 55:09

He's like, "They had bad rhythm. They were so tense. They didn't know what they were doing in their practice." so I wanna thank, I wanna thank him because I wanna thank you, the listener. If you share us with people, that's just really cool for us. Not, you know, we don't do it to be the biggest podcast in the world or anything. But if you share it and just, you know, sharing this time with us, we really do appreciate that. There's no question about it. So thank you, thank you for tuning in, and we will catch you next time on the Golf Intervention podcast with a new episode, exciting new episode. We'll have to decide what it's gonna be, but by this time next week

Rob 55:45

We'll know what that exciting new episode is.

Eric 55:46

It'll be awesome. Yeah. It'll be so cool. But no, again, thank you for tuning in. Can't thank you enough. Have a great week. Play some great golf.